D&D 5E Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?

[Oofta]

No, sorry, that's just not true.

D&D is not anywhere near that simple. You're describing RPGs, specifically DM-centric ones.

D&D is an RPG, but it is not anywhere near as simple as you're suggesting, and no, D&D does not let that be "all there is to it".

D&D has specific rules and guidelines, huge amounts of them. The whole 6-8 encounters/day and the difficulty moderation of the encounters alone places 50-100x the DM work burden that a lot of RPGs do (I mean that literally, to be clear). Then D&D is entirely DM-centric as well, with no player narration and limited player creativity allowed, RAW/RAI, which again puts vastly more weight on the DM.

And you say "Oh well people are unnecessarily panicking" and I say, no they're right to panic, D&D has too many goddamn rules and they're not good rules.

Re: encouraging people to read, ummmm, that's an unconventional take. Most educators I know would suggest neither comics nor Tolstoy were a particularly great way to get people reading. So that's just something you've made up on the spot. If you want D&D to be less like Tolstoy though, D&D needs to be redesigned. Moving away from levels would be huge if you really wanted to make D&D more accessible. Levels are the main thing that makes D&D hard to run, that and the fact that 5E is relatively tightly balanced.

Do you ever get tired of trashing a game that millions of people enjoy playing? We should be panicking because ... why now? Because it's the most successful version of D&D ever? Because we've had nearly a decade of double digit growth?

Nothing is perfect and of course the game can be improved. I hope they do. But the house is hardly on fire.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

OMG! People are actually expected to pay money for books! Sacrilege!

Or ... they could start with the free core rules, the free encounter with associated video, the free bazillion or so blogs, actual play streams, google "how to play". If you're so poor that you can't afford $20 on a game it sucks, it really does. But WOTC is not a charity. Playing a game is not a god given right, it's a choice.

What exactly is the business model you're going for? What we lack in income we make up for in volume?

It's pretty funny that you're sneering at literally one of the most successful business models in gaming.

Not exactly making your argument there look very good lol.

The issue is that D&D doesn't want you to play it. It wants you to collect it. And that push is only going to continue. Lots of other RPGs want you to actually play them, but they're a lot easier to get into, and have a much lower burden on the DM. The main issue they face is that D&D effectively limits people's ability to find out the others even exist, especially now, and WotC's plans are very clearly that that will continue and in fact become more extreme.

I mean, there's a reason WotC chosen D&D Beyond, not any of the other platforms. It's not because of their great tech or stellar developers, they don't have those. It's because they only do D&D. Therefore no-one will even be hearing about other RPGs, let alone thinking about them.

D&D's massive edge will allow it to continue to be successful even when, realistically-speaking, it is one of the less-accessible RPGs out there, one of the ones which dumps the most work on a single individual.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Do you ever get tired of trashing a game that millions of people enjoy playing? We should be panicking because ... why now? Because it's the most successful version of D&D ever? Because we've had nearly a decade of double digit growth?

Nothing is perfect and of course the game can be improved. I hope they do. But the house is hardly on fire.

I'm sorry, but if you think that's "trashing", there's nothing to argue with, because you're misidentified fairly mild criticism as "trashing". I'd suggest you're being a tad defensive.

Especially with your "panicking" and "house is on fire" stuff. I didn't say anything of the sort. I said D&D was a relatively complicated RPG, which it is. You didn't even try and argue, you just made up something I didn't say, and shoved it in my mouth.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

No, sorry, that's just not true.

Sure it is! I think it's true! So ... impasse!

D&D is not anywhere near that simple. You're describing RPGs, specifically DM-centric ones.

D&D is an RPG, but it is not anywhere near as simple as you're suggesting, and no, D&D does not let that be "all there is to it".

D&D has specific rules and guidelines, huge amounts of them.

For people that are into that sort of thing, sure. But you know what is fun and liberating .... ignoring those specific rules and guidelines, even if there are huge amounts of them.* Weirdly, we have been discussing a book (the DMG) which has all sorts of ways of showing people that they can, in fact, ignore or make up or alter stuff if they want to.

I recommend it! To quote Zak de la Rocha, when it comes to people saying I have to follow the rules ... Eff you, I won't do what you tell me.


*ESPECIALLY if there are huge amounts of them. Unless you're like, really into Phoenix Command. No judging!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

For people that are into that sort of thing, sure. But you know what is fun and liberating .... ignoring those specific rules and guidelines, even if there are huge amounts of them. Weirdly, we have been discussing a book (the DMG) which has all sorts of ways of showing people that they can, in fact, ignore or make up or alter stuff if they want to.

I recommend it! To quote Zak de la Rocha, when it comes to people saying I have to follow the rules ... Eff you, I won't do what you tell me.

That's nice and all, but D&D doesn't really suggest that, and the DMG particularly fails to suggest anything of the sort in any real way, and instead just blathers and bumbles around. If the goal is to show people that they can ignore or alter stuff any way they want to, the 5E DMG singularly fails at it.

D&D could absolutely be written as a highly-accessible RPG that added more complexity if you wanted it.

But that cold hard fact is that it's not, and no amount of misquoting RatM is going to change that.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

That's nice and all, but D&D doesn't really suggest that, and the DMG particularly fails to suggest anything of the sort in any real way, and instead just blathers and bumbles around. If the goal is to show people that they can ignore or alter stuff any way they want to, the 5E DMG singularly fails at it.

D&D could absolutely be written as a highly-accessible RPG that added more complexity if you wanted it.

But that cold hard fact is that it's not, and no amount of misquoting RatM is going to change that.

You have a delicious habit of telling other people what the "cold hard fact{s}" are, while somehow lacking the self-awareness that you are (1) not, in fact, dealing out those facts, and (2) simply regurgitating the same tired arguments that people are ignoring because they are somewhere between laughable and risible (depending on how seriously people take you).

But I can't stop ya! Carry on!

 

[Malmuria]

Is it actually that common for someone to know enough about D&D to specifically buy the starter set first, rather than buying the stuff you need to, y'know, actually play the game?

Either way, you're still saying the neophyte is expected to cough up $20 for the privilege of being ACTUALLY taught how to play the game.

The starter sets have been typically sold at more general places like target and in toy stores, next to the board games. The 1991 black box that I started with was even designed to be extra large so it would look like a board game. From the Ben Riggs data (from what I recall) the starter sets outsold the core books in the 80s. So I think it's a pretty common first step in terms of purchases.

The essentials kit is a pretty good deal. It's $16 on amazon on includes character creation guidelines, a pretty solid set of adventures up to level 5-6 (with more on dndbeyond), and a coupon to buy the phb on dnd beyond. It also has dice, maps etc. My understanding is that the starter sets are loss leaders. They don't actually make money, they are there mostly there to onboard new players.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You have a delicious habit of telling other people what the "cold hard fact{s}" are, while somehow lacking the self-awareness that you are (1) not, in fact, dealing out those facts, and (2) simply regurgitating the same tired arguments that people are ignoring because they are somewhere between laughable and risible (depending on how seriously people take you).

But I can't stop ya! Carry on!

You haven't actually made an argument, Snarf, that's the problem. Nor have you illustrated any problems with mine. You've just done a fun snap with a RatM quote.

The fact is that D&D 5E is at the complicated end of the RPG spectrum, and puts a huge amount of work on the DM - this is part of why D&D has a bit of a DM shortage, relative to the number of people who want to play it. The fact is that D&D 5E has a huge amount of rules you're expected to use by the game/designers, and that players also expect you to use. Do you dispute either of these things?

One of the main selling points of D&D is that so many people play it, and virtually all of them use an awful lot of the rules - more often with extra ones on top, than with ones taken away. Sure, you could somehow drop huge amounts of the rules, but unless you're already a talented DM, the complexity of D&D means the odds of getting things wrong in a way that's no fun for anyone are significant.

As for "tired old arguments", the problem with "tired old arguments" is 80% of them are "tired and old" because they're true (at least to a significant degree), and some people just don't like hearing them.

 

[Oofta]

I'm sorry, but if you think that's "trashing", there's nothing to argue with, because you're misidentified fairly mild criticism as "trashing". I'd suggest you're being a tad defensive.

Especially with your "panicking" and "house is on fire" stuff. I didn't say anything of the sort. I said D&D was a relatively complicated RPG, which it is. You didn't even try and argue, you just made up something I didn't say, and shoved it in my mouth.

I don't think "it's time to panic" and "they're not good rules" that you stated is "mild criticism".

.... I say, no they're right to panic, D&D has too many goddamn rules and they're not good rules.....

If I misunderstood what you clearly stated, that's fine. But I am not putting words in your mouth. In any case, if you want to actually discuss concepts and what could be improved I'll be happy to discuss.

 

[Oofta]

...
As for "tired old arguments", the problem with "tired old arguments" is 80% of them are "tired and old" because they're true (at least to a significant degree), and some people just don't like hearing them.

Seems to me that 58.5% of all statistics are made up.