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WotC Dragonlance: Everything You Need For Shadow of the Dragon Queen

WotC has shared a video explaining the Dragonlance setting, and what to expect when it is released in December. World at War: Introduces war as a genre of play to fifth edition Dungeons & Dragons. Dragonlance: Introduces the Dragonlance setting with a focus on the War of the Lance and an overview of what players and DMs need to run adventures during this world spanning conflict. Heroes of...

WotC has shared a video explaining the Dragonlance setting, and what to expect when it is released in December.

World at War: Introduces war as a genre of play to fifth edition Dungeons & Dragons.

Dragonlance: Introduces the Dragonlance setting with a focus on the War of the Lance and an overview of what players and DMs need to run adventures during this world spanning conflict.

Heroes of War: Provides character creation rules highlighting core elements of the Dragonlance setting, including the kender race and new backgrounds for the Knight of Solamnia and Mage of High Sorcery magic-users. Also introduces the Lunar Sorcery sorcerer subclass with new spells that bind your character to Krynn's three mystical moons and imbues you with lunar magic.

Villains: Pits heroes against the infamous death knight Lord Soth and his army of draconians.


Notes --
  • 224 page hardcover adventure
  • D&D's setting for war
  • Set in eastern Solamnia
  • War is represented by context -- it's not goblins attacking the village, but evil forces; refugees, rumours
  • You can play anything from D&D - clerics included, although many classic D&D elements have been forgotten
  • Introductory scenarios bring you up to speed on the world so no prior research needed
 

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pemerton

Legend
of course they can, I am not aware of anyone saying otherwise


No, they would not be lying, but they would be changing the setting. Since it is their setting (see above) they can do so.


This is a dishonest argument, I am calling you out, not WotC.

You are basically saying 'let everyone decide for themselves' but you are not giving them the information to base that decision on. You instead want to imply that they should be in (the default for 5e) rather than presenting how DL used to be and then telling the players to decide whether to allow them.

If you want them to decide, then tell them. Not telling them at that point does become a lie by omission. And just to be clear: you can tell them by listing what is explicitly in, or by focusing on the PHB races that are explicitly out, either is perfectly fine. It's not saying anything that I object to.
Everyone can decide. And will. "The setting" is not an objective thing. People don't need information about some objective "the setting" before they can decide what imaginary place they want to imagine their D&D game taking place in.

No one is hurt because someone imagines an Orc in Krynn. Not the person who does the imagining. Nor anyone else.

People should be able to decide for themselves if they want to stay true to the original setting lore or add in orcs. You can say it's only for super important things, but that's not a call you get to make for anyone but yourself. I'm not into robbing people of the ability to make an informed decision.
The decision as to whether to imagine things the same as someone else did in the mid-1980s, or not, is not an important decision.

When I think of Aunt May she is old and grey-haired, as per the classic Spider-Man comics from the 60s and 70s. Presumably many people today, when they think of Aunt May, think of the character in the recent films who is very little like the Aunt May I think of. No harm is done by either me or those others in imagining what we imagine. And Marvel/Disney is not obliged to tell anyone anything about the different ways in which they present a given character.

If someone today wants to find out what many people thought of when they thought of DL and Krynn in the 1980s there are ample materials to do so. WotC is not depriving anyone of any entitlement by not including that information in whatever it decides to publish now.
 

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mamba

Legend
Everyone can decide. And will. "The setting" is not an objective thing. People don't need information about some objective "the setting" before they can decide what imaginary place they want to imagine their D&D game taking place in.
The official setting absolutely is an objective thing. Your table then makes subjective changes to it as it sees fit.

You are basically saying 'there should not be a setting'... willing to burn down the house so some people can be kept in the dark about whether orcs should be on Krynn, so they never even have to decide to add them

The decision as to whether to imagine things the same as someone else did in the mid-1980s, or not, is not an important decision.
no, but the decision whether you want to go against the lore of the world or not is.
 

BrokenTwin

Biological Disaster
But this I don't agree with. We're talking about imaginary places. The notion of "default" has no real work to do. Like, a default setting on a machine is a manufacturer's suggestion as to how to obtain a base level of successful performance; but the concept of "successful performance" doesn't apply to imaginary places. Dragonlance won't stop working as an imaginary place if someone also imagines an Orc in it.
All a setting is is just a default set of assumptions and ideas. That involves what type of people exist in the setting in question. Knowing that information makes the setting more valuable as a consumer, because the whole point of purchasing someone else's setting instead of creating your own wholecloth is acquiring that default set of assumptions, which you would hopefully want to be carefully crafted and considered and not tossed together at random. Mess with it as much as you want once you have it, but make the initial purchase worth the price.

I don't think MaxPerson or mamba are saying "if you put orcs in DL you're doing badwrongfun". In fact, I think they've been pretty clear on that. Buy the new DL book and add orcs to it at your table, I doubt either will object or care. Will the DL book be a terrible product solely because it doesn't include a list of default ancestries? No. But it would be a better setting product if it did, because it would be offering more detail as to the world as the writers envision it.

Having said all that, I'm not the market audience for this book anyway. I prefer settings that offer a lens on a tightly focused concept, idea, or theme, and DL's a little too "generic fantasy" to fit that bill for me. But for people looking for a broader scope setting (or just enamored by any specific detail of DL), the book might be perfect for them. Even if they need to add orcs to it at their table. Because it's not that hard to do, and isn't hurting anybody.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
"Informed consent" is a concept from medicine, perhaps financial planning, and similarly weighty areas of human life.

I don't see how it operates in the context of the commercial publication of books about imaginary places. WotC doesn't have an obligation to inform people who purchase tomorrow's Dragonlance book that, yesterday, the book it was selling under the same title did this or that thing with Orcs.

If someone at tomorrow's D&D table has memories of what was in yesterday's book, they can share those memories, or not, as they see fit. There is zero big deal here that I can see.
They're not legally obligated, but if they publish a new version of an old setting without noting that's it new and different, or what the traditional setting allowed, they are deceiving anyone who has ever heard of Dragonlance prior to the new product. Not to a great degree, but it is happening.
 

Do they still like that kind of thing? Or was that just hugely popular back in the 80s when gaming was very young and players didn't know there were non-railroady options?
Open world play predates the railroad. Dragonlance invented railroad campaigns. That was the great innovation.

And I can't speak for what everyone likes, but I know my current players like that sort of thing. To a degree, they want me to tell them a story. A story they can be involved with, interact with and influence to be sure. But still a story.

I've tried open world play with them and they didn't know what to do with themselves. They just sat around looking at each other waiting for something to happen.
You very neatly avoided by question here. You claim it's not a world of dragon battles or good versus evil, but actually one of the American frontier, plus a war.
Impressions are subjective, and mine is probably coloured by having come in right at the start with DL1. It's certainly a world of good vs evil, and one of my issues with the setting is how it defines "good" clashes with mine. But it's not a "world of dragons" (any more than the Realms are Forgotten). At the start, dragons are completely absent from the world (it turns out they were in hiding), and bringing back the good dragons to counter the evil dragons is an objective of the early modules. But even then dragons are not numerous (they are few enough that most are named). Their role in the war is more that of the battleship than the horse. Dragonlance very much believes in player character exceptionalism. There are the heroes (and villains) who, at very high level, might get to ride a dragon and use a dragonlance. Then the was everyone else, who walked.

My other distinct impression, as a British person, was just how American it all felt. To the same degree that the Shire feels ever so English.
 
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Azuresun

Adventurer
I hate to say this, but I would consider that poor quality play. A player should try their best create a character that is a good fit for the setting and storyline. They are there to make sure everyone in the group has fun, not just themselves, and helping to maintain the integrity of the fictional world is part of that.

Also, it's not like it requires that much adjustment to make most character concepts fit a given world. You want to play a fearsome, oft-misunderstood big strong guy in Dragonlance? Minotaurs are right there.
 

Also, it's not like it requires that much adjustment to make most character concepts fit a given world. You want to play a fearsome, oft-misunderstood big strong guy in Dragonlance? Minotaurs are right there.
And if it was the half orc stat block they were interested in, I would allow the use of the stats, but the character would be human.
 

This seems sensible to me.
You've not read the entire thread, but came in late into the conversation.
The point was to have a side bar acknowledging the native races of Krynn - that is all.
A table is more than welcome to include other races.
The acknowledgement does wonders for goodwill for a portion of the fanbase - as they did the same in the core by referencing various settings, characters...etc
I will add - no acknowledgement damages the relationship between WotC and a particular fanbase. Given that 5e's goal was to unite a fractured playerbase, I would think a sidebar with some details is a pretty low ceiling not to want to hit.

Ignoring the original lore has happened countless times in various big block buster franchises and we all know how the majority of those turned out. It is also likely the reason why we're losing Henry Cavill as the Witcher.

A former Witcher producer Beau DeMayo wrote: “I’ve been on show – namely Witcher – where some of the writers were not or actively disliked the books and games (even actively mocking the source material.) It’s a recipe for disaster and bad morale. Fandom as a litmus test checks egos, and makes all the long nights worth it. You have to respect the work before you’re allowed to add to its legacy.
 
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If you want an orc PC you can say he is from a crashed scro spelljammer. Or the orcs are from a dark domain because they are the torment of lord Toede, now a dark lord, suferring bullying by them.

Orcs were replaced with draconians because the intention was to show Dragonlance was not other rip-off of Tolkien's work.

Shouldn't we to talking about possible adventures with the members of the third generation?

* What if Raistlin's daughter was really, but she wasn't the product of a night with a female, but created by the urban legend itself and becoming real, coming alive?

* Have you imagined the fate of the characters in the afterlife? For example Kitiara is a dark lady, and her torment is she has to defend her domain against yaggols, brainstealer dragons, and an elder brain dragon as archnemesis. Once each year she is allowed to go to the domain of delight where her family and former friend live, she visits the inn of the last home...but a day after she return to her nightmare until the next year. Raistlin also suffers other torment, fighting against Takhisis's minions to protect his former partners against the revenge of the evil deity. Ariakas is also in other dark domain, controlling dragon armies against the planar dragons from the infernal planes (Howling dragons, hellfire wyrms, Styx dragons, pyroclastic dragons, rust dragons, Tarterian dragons, gloom dragons, chole dragons, and deathmask..).
 

pemerton

Legend
if they publish a new version of an old setting without noting that's it new and different, or what the traditional setting allowed, they are deceiving anyone who has ever heard of Dragonlance prior to the new product. Not to a great degree, but it is happening.
This is simply not true.

Marvel/Disney is not deceiving movie-goers about Aunt May. About whether or not the Scarlet Witch is a mutant. By having filmed multiple versions of the Death of Phoenix neither of which involves Phoenix on trial for genocide on the moon at the hands of Xavier's alien empress lover.

No one was deceived by LotR films which replaced Glorfindel with Arwen, and freely played with the sequence and geography of events in and around Rohan and Gondor.

People who care about these differences can learn about them from the multitude of commentaries on them that inevitably will spring up.

The official setting absolutely is an objective thing. Your table then makes subjective changes to it as it sees fit.
This is another claim that is not true.

The WotC Greyhawk setting book has completely different population figures from the TSR-era ones, revised because Eric Mona and others thought the early figures too sparse. The same book changes how druids and bards are described, to try and achieve some sort of fit between the rather baroque AD&D rules and the 3E ones. (Even TSR books did something similar - Turin Deathstalker the Guildmaster of Assassins gets redescribed as a fighter rather than an assassin, when that latter class is abolished.)

3E-era Forgotten Realms used a different set-up for its Outer Planes than Appendix IV of the AD&D PHB.

More generally, these are commercially published fictions written for the amusement of the fan-base who purchases them. They're not encyclopaedias. They're not the artistic visions of a single creator (and even a world that is, like JRRT's Middle Earth, is not an objective thing - as is well known he had many version of various stories about all of his Ages, including revisions between editions of published versions of his books).

Even in its earliest published form, there were various published ideas of Krynn: in the novels, for instance, casting spells caused tiredness to wizards; but there was no analogue to that in the game rules for magic-users ostensibly describing the same imaginary world.

You are basically saying 'there should not be a setting'... willing to burn down the house so some people can be kept in the dark about whether orcs should be on Krynn, so they never even have to decide to add them
"Burning down the house" has no aptness here as a metaphor.

WotC is going to publish a book, about an imaginary place. It is free to present that place as it likes, and will do so. If you want to imagine the place without Orcs, you're free to do so. Others might differ in what they imagine. Maybe you'll even have to ignore a few words of what WotC publishes to do your imagining. Why does it matter? Who is being harmed? What damage is being done?

Your memories of other books you've read, in which there are no Orcs in Krynn, will not be damaged. Nothing will stop you continuing to imagine the world as you do. Why does it matter that some other people might think of something different when they think of Krynn?

Ignoring the original lore has happened countless times in various big block buster franchises and we all know how the majority of those turned out. It is also likely the reason why we're losing Henry Cavill as the Witcher.

A former Witcher producer Beau DeMayo wrote: “I’ve been on show – namely Witcher – where some of the writers were not or actively disliked the books and games (even actively mocking the source material.) It’s a recipe for disaster and bad morale. Fandom as a litmus test checks egos, and makes all the long nights worth it. You have to respect the work before you’re allowed to add to its legacy.
I don't know which blockbusters you've got in mind. Some of the blockbusters I can think of that ignored "original lore" include the LotR movies, the X-Men movies, the MCU movies, the recent Star Wars movies, David Lynch's film of Dune, the original Conan film, and Lawrence of Arabia.

That's before we even get to the point of how the presence or absence of Orcs in Krynn is remotely connected to "respecting the work" or "actively disliking it". And to what counts as a change - as per my post upthread, when D&D was first published Orcs and Goblins were the same sort of beings (just as is the case in JRRT's works) and the differentiation of one from the other at the time DL was first published was different from that which obtains now. Given that WotC is intending to publish a setting book that supports the game it currently publishes, that includes fiction about Orcs and Goblins that is not the same as what existed in the 1977 Monster Manual, if it includes Goblins in Krynn it is also presenting something different from what was originally published.

You've not read the entire thread, but came in late into the conversation.
I came into this thread after posting in two others about DL.

One was a thread in which there was outrage about whether or not Knights of Solamnia can be women, and/or can be clean-shaven.

Another was arguing about whether gods who inflict collective punishment for the sin of pride (in the form of the Cataclysm) can nevertheless be good gods.

In my view both threads have many posters who seem to be completely uninterested in what is actually interesting about DL as a work of fiction - a study of loyalty, honour, family, love, betrayal, faith and similar themes and values, that uses dragons and knights and knights riding dragons as some of its key tropes. I don't think those who are obsessing over Orcs and moustaches are showing any real respect for the work at all. To me, they seem to have missed its point.
 

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