D&D 5E Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part XII: Rogues)

[RealAlHazred]

I was curious, so I checked who knifed which of the various eliminated subclasses.

Arcane Trickster (Player's Handbook) - eliminated in post #185 by the Swashbuckler
Assassin (Player's Handbook) - eliminated in post #88 by the Thief
Inquisitive (Xanathar's Guide to Everything) - eliminated in post #165 by the Swashbuckler
Mastermind (Xanathar's Guide to Everything) - eliminated in post #178 by the Thief
Phantom (Tasha's Cauldron of Everything) - eliminated in post #86 by the Scout
Revived (Unearthed Arcana, "Fighter Ranger Rogue," 2019) - eliminated in post #31 by the Swashbuckler
Soulknife (Tasha's Cauldron of Everything) - eliminated in post #43 by the Thief

So, the Swashbuckler has three kills, the Thief has three kills, and the Scout has one.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I don't know how Scout managed to beat Arcane Trickster, though.

Scout is actually my favorite, but I knew with all the Swashbuckler love it would never make it to the end. And while I love the Thief, I am surprised so many others support it as well (it is my second favorite subclass).

 

[niklinna]

I was curious, so I checked who knifed which of the various eliminated subclasses.

Arcane Trickster (Player's Handbook) - eliminated in post #185 by the Swashbuckler
Assassin (Player's Handbook) - eliminated in post #88 by the Thief
Inquisitive (Xanathar's Guide to Everything) - eliminated in post #165 by the Swashbuckler
Mastermind (Xanathar's Guide to Everything) - eliminated in post #178 by the Thief
Phantom (Tasha's Cauldron of Everything) - eliminated in post #86 by the Scout
Revived (Unearthed Arcana, "Fighter Ranger Rogue," 2019) - eliminated in post #31 by the Swashbuckler
Soulknife (Tasha's Cauldron of Everything) - eliminated in post #43 by the Thief

So, the Swashbuckler has three kills, the Thief has three kills, and the Scout has one.

I do not understand how subclasses are eiliminating other subclasses. I thought enworld posters were the ones doing the eliminating!

 

[Tonguez]

Scout is actually my favorite, but I knew with all the Swashbuckler love it would never make it to the end. And while I love the Thief, I am surprised so many others support it as well (it is my second favorite subclass).

scout is a ranger so it would be sad to have it be the star rogue whereas thief is the rogue in its purest, original form. Fast hands is useful too.
Swashbuckler is the cinematic rogue hero so works for me too

 

[DND_Reborn]

scout is a ranger so it would be sad to have it be the star rogue

One of my favorite PCs was a Ranger/Rogue (Scout) multiclass... What makes it really "rogue-appropriate" is the "urban scout" and "expert treasure hunter" roles.

You might not see it as being very "rogue-y", but it is IMO. Yet, as I said, I know it is not as "popular" as swashbuckler... or even thief apparently LOL!

 

[RealAlHazred]

I do not understand how subclasses are eiliminating other subclasses. I thought enworld posters were the ones doing the eliminating!

It's how I picture the eliminations. Lots of backstabbing. What I actually mean is which subclass did the poster vote up while eliminating one of the others. I was curious which fans were doing the eliminating, and it turns out it's fans of Swashbucklers and Thieves. (And one Scout stan.)

 

[CleverNickName]

Because...it shouldn't. I honestly can't tell if you're being actually facetious, "double ironic," or sincere.

But just in case you are being sincere (or "double ironic"), the problem of shoehorning things together in this way is that at least one of the things involved is gonna get watered down as a result, at least assuming you ignore the slippery-slope problem that this sort of thing all too often engenders.* That is, make Bard a Rogue subclass, and now you have to fit in extra music proficiencies, spellcasting, Inspiration, and the small bits like Song of Rest, all without overstepping the extremely limited space of a subclass.

I'm quite serious. Borrowing from the different bard abilities and other rogue subclasses, you could cobble a very playable "bard" together easily. Using your outline above ("extra music proficiencies, spellcasting, Inspiration, and the small bits like Song of Rest, all without overstepping the extremely limited space of a subclass") I came up with what I feel is a workable first-draft:

Spoiler: Bard as a Rogue Subclass

In this exercise, I'll eliminate the Bard core class, and make it a subclass of Rogue instead.

Bonus Proficiencies:
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with two musical instruments of your choice. (Identical to Assassin, except musical instruments instead of stealth skills.)

Bardic Inspiration:
At 3rd Level, you can inspire others through stirring words or music. (Identical to the Bard's 1st-level ability. Whether or not you include "Font of Inspiration" at 5th level is up to you.)

Bardic Magic:
When you claim this subclass at 3rd level, you augment your abilities with the ability to cast spells.
(Same spell table as the Arcane Trickster, except Bard spells instead of Wizard.)

9th Level Ability: Song of Rest
(Identical to the bard's 9th level ability. You could also substitute in Countercharm instead, or give the player a choice between the two, if that's a deal-breaker. Or give both at 9th level, it probably won't break anything.)

13th Level Ability: Magical Secrets
(same as the Bard's 10th level ability)

17th Level Ability: Spell Thief
(Identical to the Arcane Trickster's ability of the same name)

Or something along those lines. I threw it together in ten minutes; I'm sure it's not perfect. But at the very least, I think this subclass has everything that players expect a "Bard" to bring to the party.

 

[RealAlHazred]

But at the very least, I think this subclass has everything that players expect a "Bard" to bring to the party.

I disagree! A Bard needs three things: fighter levels, thief levels, and then druid spells and weird abilities. You can't do that in a subclass!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

(Great. I thought I saw a really nice Old School Essentials Swashbuckler just a few hours ago, but I can't find it again. My browser history is impenetrable today. I won't be unhappy if the Swashbuckler wins, but there are several subclasses I really like that are left. EDIT: Found it.)

Heck, I like Assassin just fine. It's not meant for what people at my table tried to do with it. If you want a guy who does more like the Assassin's Creed thing, that's kind of like a DEX-y Duelist Fighter (EDIT: Or Swashbuckler Rogue). The Assassin Rogue is the guy who takes one shot at the target from a long ways off with the best weapon available and a heavily-poisoned round, and then immediately leaves the scene whether he hits or misses. If he hit and killed the target, great. If he missed or didn't kill the target, well, there's backup plans and contingencies, and he'd be better off figuring out next steps in the Safe House anyway, rather than in an alleyway while fighting irate guards.

See, to me, that isn’t the assassin archetype, that’s a hit man.

If there is an assassin PC option, and there should be, it should be able to fight and shadow-gank. Hell, it should also be able to intimidate and inspire covertly and indirectly, somehow, because assassins are about a cause or a people, not just money.

The assassins that give the archetype its name were in it for money at all. They left daggers on the pillows of powerful individuals to push them to change course, or they ganked them and then let themselves be seen with the bloody dagger held high and then disappeared, and they were trained to fight when needed.

Which you can do with the assassin rogue, it’s just that very little of it comes from the subclass.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm quite serious. Borrowing from the different bard abilities and other rogue subclasses, you could cobble a very playable "bard" together easily. Using your outline above ("extra music proficiencies, spellcasting, Inspiration, and the small bits like Song of Rest, all without overstepping the extremely limited space of a subclass") I came up with what I feel is a workable first-draft:

Spoiler: Bard as a Rogue Subclass

In this exercise, I'll eliminate the Bard core class, and make it a subclass of Rogue instead.

Bonus Proficiencies:
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with two musical instruments of your choice. (Identical to Assassin, except musical instruments instead of stealth skills.)

Bardic Inspiration:
At 3rd Level, you can inspire others through stirring words or music. (Identical to the Bard's 1st-level ability. Whether or not you include "Font of Inspiration" at 5th level is up to you.)

Bardic Magic:
When you claim this subclass at 3rd level, you augment your abilities with the ability to cast spells.
(Same spell table as the Arcane Trickster, except Bard spells instead of Wizard.)

9th Level Ability: Song of Rest
(Identical to the bard's 9th level ability. You could also substitute in Countercharm instead, or give the player a choice between the two, if that's a deal-breaker. Or give both at 9th level, it probably won't break anything.)

13th Level Ability: Magical Secrets
(same as the Bard's 10th level ability)

17th Level Ability: Spell Thief
(Identical to the Arcane Trickster's ability of the same name)

Or something along those lines. I threw it together in ten minutes; I'm sure it's not perfect. But at the very least, I think this subclass has everything that players expect a "Bard" to bring to the party.

Yeah it duplicates the 5e bard class pretty well, but that really showcases how badly they interpreted the Bard in 5e…

I may build a non-full caster Bard class one of these days that actually looks and feels Bardic.