5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

[Cleon]

ok - int 0-3 and CR up to 4 total sounds fine. I initially looked at an elephant (CR 4) but am happy to keep to 3 but as I was typing saw last post

The original doesn't have a bite either FWIW...but looks like it should I concede/ CR 5 for critters might be on the high side

Okay, so we're going for the above with Intelligence 0 to 3 and a normal retinue of CR 4?

Do you favour Note #1 or #2?

I'm in favour of allowing Challenge 4 entries to the retinue if only so the chthon can have an elephant enforcer. I can visualize it now…

Chthon grins evilly, then chuckles "say hello to my little friend"…

…clump Clump CLUMP angry trumpeting TRAMPLE!!​

We could place a max CR on the individual creatures and forget about the maximum or drop it entirely, in which case we'd have to use Note #2 or a variant, since the CR will vary enormously. The original entry placed no limit on the nastiness of the Chthon's controlled creatures.

i.e.:

Control Animals and Plants. The chthon can telepathically control nonsapient flora and fauna. A single chthon can control up to twenty beasts and plants of Intelligence 0 to 3.​

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Note (complex): The chthon's Challenge of # does not include its retinue of controlled beasts and plants. A typical chthon will be accompanied by up to a dozen creatures whose total Challenge Rating is 3, such as a single CR 3 ankylosaurus; one CR 2 giant constrictor snake plus eight CR 1/8 giant rats; or a dozen CR 1/4 wolves and boars. Some chthon's only have a few squirrels and foxes at their beck and call, a few have massive retinues such as a herd of elephants.​

 

[Cleon]

The original doesn't have a bite either FWIW

I know, but just look at the mouth in its illustration! It sure looks like it'd have a mean bite!

Maybe it can cast a plant growth once a day/week/month?

Yeah, that'd fit the original flavour text. The only objection I have is it's not that dynamic. It's just got scenery basically rather than something that involves Actions and saving throws and damage or disadvantage and all that other "fun" stuff.*

*Amount of fun on the receiving end is not guaranteed.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Agreed on the mean bite, but how to shoehorn an accurate damage, or just make it 2d8+5 (sorta large and "brutish" bite in keeping with its large size)

 

[Cleon]

Agreed on the mean bite, but how to shoehorn an accurate damage, or just make it 2d8+5 (sorta large and "brutish" bite in keeping with its large size)

That's just too low if you want to hit Challenge 6.

With its other numbers, the CR Calculator says we need a DPR between 15 and 26 for CR 6. A damage of 2d8 + 5 is DPR 14 and just inside Challenge 5.

That said, I'm fine making it CR 5 or even lower. It should makes the encounter budget easier to balance.

If the Chthon has a WAY higher Challenge than its retinue than the animals and plants fighting alongside it won't meaningfully contribute towards the battle, which is the reverse of what the original monster design was.

Hmm, in fact I'd suggest going further and lowering the Strength to 18 and making the bite +6 to hit and 13 (2d8+4) damage. That puts it at Challenge 4, making CR 1/4 wolves or CR 1/8 giant rats more meaningful allies.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Hmm, in fact I'd suggest going further and lowering the Strength to 18 and making the bite +6 to hit and 13 (2d8+4) damage. That puts it at Challenge 4, making CR 1/4 wolves or CR 1/8 giant rats more meaningful allies.

Agreed - I like this - makes for a lower level encounter where beasts are more substantial foes. Adjusted

 

[Cleon]

Agreed - I like this - makes for a lower level encounter where beasts are more substantial foes. Adjusted

Updated the Chthon with lower STR, CR, a Bite and revised version of Control Beasts and Plants.

I had to drop the Saving Throw Proficiency in Charisma to get it in Challenge 4. I forgot to set it to 3 STPs when doing the calculation before.

 

[Cleon]

I had to drop the Saving Throw Proficiency in Charisma to get it in Challenge 4. I forgot to set it to 3 STPs when doing the calculation before.

The alternative for CR 4 was cutting off a few HD and make it, say 10d10+50.

It depends how much you want the improved Charisma saves!

More hit points is a lot more useful I think.

Speaking of Charisma saves, are we making Control Beasts and Plants a Wisdom or Charisma saving throw? The precedent for charm, dominate and other enchantment-like effects is Wisdom.

Considering most animals and plants have crappy Charisma scores, they would be less likely to succeed if it were Charisma.

Offhand, I can't think of many 5E effects that have CHA saves, can you?

 

[Casimir Liber]

to me, logic suggests it should be a wisdom save like other charm/dominate spells as it's a battle of wills. agree on proportionally high hp

 

[Cleon]

to me, logic suggests it should be a wisdom save like other charm/dominate spells as it's a battle of wills. agree on proportionally high hp

I'll have to agree with you since that's what the precedence says. Although isn't Charisma a matter of will too? It's influencing other sapients' behaviour through the force of your personality, which is at least willpower adjacent.

Will have to squeeze a CHA save in some other monster then!

Updated the Chthon to make Control Beasts and Plants Wisdom save and slightly tweaked its wording to smooth out some clunky grammar.

Just remembered I wanted a line-of-sight requirement to the control. Otherwise the Chthon would bury itself under the ground where PCs wouldn't be able to reach it while its retinue do all the work.

That's need a revision to the wording along these lines:

The chthon may try to establish control over any beast or plant it can see within 60 feet which does not have a special link to another creature (it cannot control a ranger's animal companion or a plant animated by a druid's spell, for example). The target must succeed at a DC 12 Wisdom saving throw or fall under the chthon's control, which lasts until the chthon releases the controlled creature (a free action), the chthon or the affected creature is dead or unconscious, the two are separated by more than a mile, or the creature is affected by a power that breaks mind control. Controlled creatures always seek to remain within 1 mile of the chthon.​

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If the chthon can see a controlled beast or plant within 120 feet, it can send telepathic orders the creature follows to the best of its natural ability. The chthon cannot force a controlled creature to do anything it could not do normally, such as suicidal or unnatural actions.​

We've still got the "protection from plants" power(s) to figure out.

 

[Casimir Liber]

ok, so maybe make it CHA then after all for a different setting. And make the save bonuses WIS and CHA (and drop INT) - agree with line of sight admendment