D&D (2024) Intelligence is your lie detecting stat - is it still a dump stat?

[billd91]

If that's the case then are npcs just incapable of lieing to PCs?

Of course they are, they just don‘t use the same rule mechanic as PCs using the influence action.

 

[Yaarel]

So one major (and likely controversial) change from the latest packet: Insight is no longer your primary "lie detector" type stats. Deception is now opposed by the intelligence score of the person you are trying to bluff.

This is a major flavor change, no longer is your wise cleric the one sniffing out lies, its your book nerd wizard.

Intelligence has long been thought of as a dump stat for characters not focused in it. Do you think this change will help that? Do you think this change makes sense?

I feel the Deception skill too needs to (nominally) key off of Intelligence.

A person needs to be intelligent and knowledgeable in order to pass off a fraud that can fool the experts.

There is a difference between a con artist preying on hopes (Persuasion) and fears (Intimidation), versus a forger, hoaxer or fraud who can deceive even the experts.

 

[Lojaan]

There is knowing someone is lying because you can see it (wis) and knowing that they are lying because what they are saying doesn't add up (int)

 

[Charlaquin]

If that's the case then are npcs just incapable of lieing to PCs?

Of course NPCs can lie to PCs. Players can decide for themselves if they think the NPC is lying or not, and if they want to take steps to verify that assumption they can use the Search action to determine the NPC’s state of mind, which according to the glossary is a Wisdom check (Insight).

If you want the NPC’s Charisma and possible Deception proficiency to be relevant, I recommend using their passive Charisma (Deception) as the DC. Or I suppose you could make it a Wisdom (Insight) vs. Charisma (Deception) contest.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I like the idea of:

You need to beat DC15 or int score, whichever is higher.

This could be a model for hiding:
You need to beat DC 15 or Wisdom score, whichever is higher.

Or shove/grapple:
You need to beat the AC woth your unarmed attack. If you also roll higher than the STR and DEX score of the opponent, you can shove or grab the target.

 

[Horwath]

there should be more mechanical benefits from Int.

add int bonus to number of languages, tools or weapons that you are proficient

add one skill proficiency at +1 bonus, two skills at +3 bonus and one expertise at +5 bonus.

remove one skill and one tool or language from background if Int is 8 or lower.

rework saves to 3 saves:
fort save; uses both str and con mods, all current str and con DCs
reflex save: uses both dex and int mods, all current dex DCs
will save: uses both wis and cha mods, all current int, wis and cha DCs

 

[Charlaquin]

there should be more mechanical benefits from Int.

add int bonus to number of languages, tools or weapons that you are proficient

add one skill proficiency at +1 bonus, two skills at +3 bonus and one expertise at +5 bonus.

remove one skill and one tool or language from background if Int is 8 or lower.

rework saves to 3 saves:
fort save; uses both str and con mods, all current str and con DCs
reflex save: uses both dex and int mods, all current dex DCs
will save: uses both wis and cha mods, all current int, wis and cha DCs

I think the bonus proficiencies is all you would need to make Int a priority stat for most characters, on par with Constitution.

 

[Xamnam]

Jokes on you, most of my characters already dump wisdom!

 

[Knight_Marshal]

I hate the idea of dump stats and that the point buy and stat array force you to have them. Yes you can use your points and spread them out, but that mechanically weakens your character

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I really hope, strength or dex as a second hurdle for grabs and shoves will be modeled after the int hurdle. I'd really like that.

Edit: oh damn... I already wrote that here