WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

[Alzrius]

Has the Great Wheel ever changed the outer planes? Could it include an Outer Plane that has nothing to do with alignment?

There's are a few materials from the 3E era which suggest that the Plane of Mirrors (which debuted in the 3E Manual of the Planes) was actually part of the setting's cosmology, rather than simply being a possible other plane the way the MotP presented it as being.

 

[Staffan]

Now, if your goal is to create a plane that has absolutely nothing to do with alignment or does but it can't be pigeonholed--maybe it has both Good and Evil but you can't imagine sticking it in the Outlands--then yes, there's a major problem there. But I think that this possibility is going to be quite rare.

Not at all. In my ideal cosmology, only a small minority of planes has anything whatsoever to do with alignment.

 

[Faolyn]

Not at all. In my ideal cosmology, only a small minority of planes has anything whatsoever to do with alignment.

My personal cosmology doesn't either, but I was meaning "D&D players in general," not specific tables.

 

[Alzrius]

Reading over this debate about the "closed" nature of the Outer Planes, I'm reminded of the introduction in Zombie Sky Press's Along the Twisting Way: The Faerie Ring Campaign Guide (affiliate link), which posits that the standard Great Wheel cosmology is incomplete. There's the Outer Planes, the Inner Planes, the Transitive Planes, the Material Plane(s), and also...the Preternatural Planes.

Those last ones are, essentially, the planes which don't fit anywhere else. Places such as the Plane of Dreams, Purgatory, the Faerie Realms, etc. They were always there, but didn't fit into "standard" groupings of the planes, and are where a lot of the more unusual creatures in the multiverse, such as fey, come from.

 

[Azzy]

I try to educate and provide context while I DM all the time. I feel that's one of the DM's many hats.

So you think that you're capable of educating about and providing context to SA or other vastly morally reprehensible things?

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

Reading over this debate about the "closed" nature of the Outer Planes, I'm reminded of the introduction in Zombie Sky Press's Along the Twisting Way: The Faerie Ring Campaign Guide (affiliate link), which posits that the standard Great Wheel cosmology is incomplete. There's the Outer Planes, the Inner Planes, the Transitive Planes, the Material Plane(s), and also...the Preternatural Planes.

Those last ones are, essentially, the planes which don't fit anywhere else. Places such as the Plane of Dreams, Purgatory, the Faerie Realms, etc. They were always there, but didn't fit into "standard" groupings of the planes, and are where a lot of the more unusual creatures in the multiverse, such as fey, come from.

I seem to recall a decent amount of Planescape fan-theory positing that the Rule of Three suggests that there should be a third big transitive plane like the Ethereal and Astral - I've seen the name "Ordinal Plane" thrown about for that purpose, others have suggested this is the true nature of the Far Realm.

Since pretty much all of the standard Planescape Great Wheel cosmology is either contained within the Ethereal (the Inner Planes, Demiplanes), the Astral (Outer Planes), or in the places where the two overlap (Material Plane, Feywild, Shadowfell), adding in a hypothetical third "circle" to the proverbial Venn Diagram creates plenty of room for new things to be added that don't fit the existing model, and yet don't really break it either.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Can you tell me with absolute certainty that Shavarath isn't just a section of infinite Ysgard/Asgard where different factions are vying for control?

Or maybe it's Irian. No wait, that's explicitly the positive energy plane. Perhaps it's Mabar. No, that's explicitly the negative energy plane. Seems those two planes are in the World Axis after all.

Yes, I can tell you that.

Now, can you address my points about the World Axis, The World Tree and the Great Wheel without bringing the Orrery in it to try and distract from my points? Because notably the names "Shavarath", "Irian", and "Mabar" made no appearance in my discussion on how the Great Wheel, The World Axis, and the World Tree present the various pieces associated with Ysgard.

Or is this another example of your "just saying what you mean" to immediately deflect from a direct question instead of answering it?

You know that Arvandor isn't a plane, right? It's a layer of Arborea which is in the 5e DMG.

You know that in the World Tree cosmology Arvandor is a plane right? One of the Celestial Planes specifically. Like I literally stated? Telling me that it isn't a plane but is actually just part of a Great Wheel Plane just once again proves my point.

No. It means that since planes are infinite, one plane can have multiple feels depending where on it you are. Ysgard, Asgard, and perhaps Shavarath can all be the same plane. Or you can make them all different places. That's up to the DM. The default, though, is for all cosmologies in 5e to be using the same planes, even if they have different names and imagery(Wheel, Tree, Axis, etc.).

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. This isn't about the flippin' imagery. No wonder you think that section of text stating the Great Wheel might not literally be a wheel matters. You are literally saying the quiet part out loud here Max. All of 5e uses the Great Wheel planes. If you want to make them look different, or give them different names, you can, but you can't use a different cosmology, because the Great Wheel is the truth.

You are stating the problem like it is the solution, and with such brash confidence that it solves the problem.

I fully admit that you wanting these to be completely different planes and 5e using the same planes for all cosmologies is a problem for you that you can point out. So change it. Make them different planes.

And if I change it, the DMG will magically alter to offer other cosmologies?

Oh, wait, no. It won't. The Great Wheel will still be the Cosmology of DnD, and I'll have just done the work to create something else. Such equality of ideas.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If your players understand the tone of the adventure, and that adult themes may be involved (and they absolutely should, through session 0), this problem goes away for me. Beyond that, a little trust from both sides is necessary just to have a decent game at all.

And all of this should be in the book, by the way.

And so you expect a group of 13 to 15 year olds, reading an official book, to understand the tone of the adventurer and that adult themes are going to be involved, and that isn't going to cause any problems at all? No adult DM here, the DM is 14. All they have is the official DnD material.

I try to educate and provide context while I DM all the time. I feel that's one of the DM's many hats.

So you believe there is no difference between your game and a history class on the horrors of WW2? None at all?

 

[Chaosmancer]

There's are a few materials from the 3E era which suggest that the Plane of Mirrors (which debuted in the 3E Manual of the Planes) was actually part of the setting's cosmology, rather than simply being a possible other plane the way the MotP presented it as being.

That's very vague and seems like it neither changed the Great Wheel (because I've never heard of the Plane of Mirrors before this) nor does it seem to have been included in the Great Wheel as a plane not associated with any alignment. It was just, maybe, suggested to, possibly, be more important than it was originally presented.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I seem to recall a decent amount of Planescape fan-theory positing that the Rule of Three suggests that there should be a third big transitive plane like the Ethereal and Astral - I've seen the name "Ordinal Plane" thrown about for that purpose, others have suggested this is the true nature of the Far Realm.

Since pretty much all of the standard Planescape Great Wheel cosmology is either contained within the Ethereal (the Inner Planes, Demiplanes), the Astral (Outer Planes), or in the places where the two overlap (Material Plane, Feywild, Shadowfell), adding in a hypothetical third "circle" to the proverbial Venn Diagram creates plenty of room for new things to be added that don't fit the existing model, and yet don't really break it either.

And has this ever been more than a fan-theory?