D&D General The DM Shortage

[Aldarc]

I don't think that D&D monsters necessarily needs longer write-ups. I'm just saying that a lot of designers are thinking "everyone knows what an orc is" and therefore don't feel the need to spend a ton of text describing them. As an example, the Savage Worlds Adventure Edition Fantasy Companion lists kobolds as "small dragonfolk" and mentions they use traps and ambushes--all D&D things (this certainly has little to do with real-world stories about kobolds). They don't need to spend many pages describing kobold culture because the book is covertly saying "look at D&D for that info!"

If the SWADE kobold was more like the mythical one, it would very likely have a much longer description.

Maybe, but I don't think that is universally true or necessarily holds up to greater scrutiny. Also it still doesn't mean that D&D's write-ups need to be so verbose.

I don't think it's always a case of "look at D&D for that info!" Sometimes its simply a case, particularly with OSR, of "you can add whatever additional details you want to your monster in your world." Many games that I listed don't care one iota, for example, of differences between types of color-coded and/or shiny dragon. The entry is simply "dragon." Similarly, kobolds are neither dragon-men nor dog-men in Shadow of the Demon Lord, a love child of 5e D&D and WHFRP. They are fey.

Likewise, you say that Black Hack has like two pages of spells. But that's because those are all D&D spells. First, look at Charm

Whereas the 5e version is split into two spells (plus all the other spells that charm targets--IMO, the Black Hack spell is more like dominate person than charm person) and has a linked condition. OK, But... if I'm playing Black Hack and use this spell to order a target to kill themselves, will they? There's no answer--not even a "Test Wis if given an order that is self-harmful or goes against their moral code," which means that the game has a good chance of screeching to a halt while the DM and players argue about the result. And considering how much people talk about these things online (or in the pages of Dragon Magazine), this is something that can and will happen in a game where it's not spelled out.

The Black Hack version certainly isn't bad by any stretch of the means, but it also doesn't take into consideration the knowledge that has been accrued over nearly 50 years of playing D&D (and it doesn't have tournament play like D&D used to have), which is why the D&D version is longer and more in-depth.

Next, look at Animate Dead, which is a very long D&D spell.

Now, I managed to find a scan online of the original D&D books from '74. Here's their animate dead from Vol 1: Men & Magic:

Barely any longer, and most of the additional length is due to Gygaxian verbosity, using 15 words to say what Black Hack says with "from nearby bodies." The man really needed a course on conciseness in writing.

And then you compare it to that spell in further editions of D&D and it gets progressively longer.

But why does it get progressively longer? For most of it, it's because over time, the players and designers realized that it could be super-powerful because a relatively low-level player character could get their hands on a permanent, malicious army of undead (nothing in either version above that says the zombies won't go out and do zombie things on their own). And that's not what they wanted for the game--at least not for 5th level PCs. So that's why the spell's description increased as time passed, first to limit how many undead you could control at a time, and now to limit the undead's actions to what you command them to do rather than implicitly allow them to wander off and do things on their own.

A lot of this IMHO has less to do with Black Hack not taking 50 years of D&D experience into consideration but, rather, it simply comes to different conclusions than WotC or 5e does. A lot of that has more to do with the DIY attitude of philosophical OSR. Also, I'm not saying that my ideal is Black Hack. It is one example in my list of games, though it does seem to be the easiest to pick apart.

 

[Faolyn]

That...would be one of the very reasons why I think we have such a shortage. When you're thrust into the unknown with a veritable soup of contradictory advice, where you cannot filter out the good from the bad without extensive experience (which usually takes years to develop), that's a problem. You have a recipe for (a) people who might want to being scared off by the "I have no idea what I'm doing" effect, and (b) people dipping their toes in, making serious and disheartening mistakes, and then deciding they'd rather do something else instead.

Much better to, y'know, actually try to build a core of teaching that people can start from. It will never be perfect for everyone, but it will (almost guaranteed) produce better results than throwing prospective DMs to the wolves and presuming they'll stick to it long enough to figure it out.

Agreed. Maybe people need to go through all those GM tips and advice and compile them into a single useful source. With examples. Really, that's what the D&D DMG should be.

 

[Minigiant]

But I'm not talking about the DMG. I am talking about the two additional starter sets that have come out since the game launched -- the essentials kit in 2019 and Stormwreck this year. Surely if WotC was interested in creating new GMs that is where the effort would be focused, right?

Accordingto reviews I seen, neither of them teach you how to DM either. Just how to run the beginner adventure.

That's the core issue. WOTC has provded nothing to graduate to your own stuff. Nothing to create your own setting, adventure, enounters, or adventuring day.

 

[Malmuria]

OK, But... if I'm playing Black Hack and use this spell to order a target to kill themselves, will they? There's no answer--not even a "Test Wis if given an order that is self-harmful or goes against their moral code," which means that the game has a good chance of screeching to a halt while the DM and players argue about the result.

In my experience, it doesn't really, though of course ymmv. In fact, in 5e, I find that looking up spells and parsing their "natural language" descriptions, and then figuring out how that interacts with the gamestate is much more likely to slow the game down. (Gamestate meaning things like what's included in the range/area of effect, are there things like conditions or temporary hit points or existing spell effects that affect how the spell works, etc).

For example, in my whitehack game, a player wanted a spell like charm and he described what he wanted as "jedi mind trick." Ok--we've all seen that scene in star wars, that's how the spell works. In Whitehack, you can spend more hp for greater effect; if the player wanted a greater effect they just describe what they want it to do and the DM sets a hp cost.

 

[Faolyn]

Maybe, but I don't think that is universally true or necessarily holds up to greater scrutiny. Also it still doesn't mean that D&D's write-ups need to be so verbose.

I don't think it's always a case of "look at D&D for that info!" Sometimes its simply a case, particularly with OSR, of "you can add whatever additional details you want to your monster in your world." Many games that I listed don't care one iota, for example, of differences between types of color-coded and/or shiny dragon. The entry is simply "dragon." Similarly, kobolds are neither dragon-men nor dog-men in Shadow of the Demon Lord, a love child of 5e D&D and WHFRP. They are fey.

Oh, sure. It's not always the case. I just think a lot of times it is--particularly with games that are supposed to capture the D&D feel

A lot of this IMHO has less to do with Black Hack not taking 50 years of D&D experience into consideration but, rather, it simply comes to different conclusions than WotC or 5e does. A lot of that has more to do with the DIY attitude of philosophical OSR. Also, I'm not saying that my ideal is Black Hack. It is one example in my list of games, though it does seem to be the easiest to pick apart.

Well, for me, Black Hack was the easiest to find the rules for online, which is why I used it for my examples.

 

[Aldarc]

Oh, sure. It's not always the case. I just think a lot of times it is--particularly with games that are supposed to capture the D&D feel

While I do think that there is a certain degree of "you should know from D&D," I'm not sure if OSR is really looking at WotC era D&D for that, especially not at 5e D&D to fill in those gaps. The OSR community prizes a lot of old sourcebooks from TSR era, particularly B/X and 1e D&D. These tend to be lighter in hard lore. Moreover, there is also a lot of OSR, particularly of the more philosophical OSR branch, that is ditching D&D style lore in favor of their own. Necrotic Gnome preserves the skeleton of old school D&D lore for OSE, but Necrotic Gnome's house setting Dolmenwood basically ditches quite a bit of it in favor of more fairy tale inspired fantasy.

I also think we would be remiss if we thought that this is solely a matter of "you should know from D&D," as opposed to "you should know from other media." I don't think most people, for example, are bringing their understanding of orcs from D&D, but, rather, from Lord of the Rings or even World of Warcraft and Elder Scrolls. I don't think that my partner, for example, can tell you one thing about D&D lore. They don't care. But I don't think that they would have an issue understanding a dragon or orc that popped up in D&D or imagining how they may be used in the game. I also knew what orcs were before I ever heard of D&D in high school because I had been playing Warcraft: Orcs & Humans and Warcraft 2: Tides of Darkness and also reading The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

Well, for me, Black Hack was the easiest to find the rules for online, which is why I used it for my examples.

Fair.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I can't tell you how many people are playing D&D this instant. We do know that 5E has now outsold every other edition* and continues to sell tens of thousand of PHBs per month, although again we don't have exact numbers. We know the game has grown double digits year after year. We know they are still popular.

The exact number doesn't really matter, but this idea that the game is failing or somehow not working for new players simply is not true.

*We think. Accounting during the TSR days leaves something to be desired. In theory they may have sold more books overall, but that's not as indicative of players as sales of the PHB.

Almost weird to be having this conversation at this point…

Major investment in vtt and associated stuff…unprecedented sustained growth…a movie, toy tie ins…

I am NOT saying the bottom can’t drop out but I am asking if this does not tell you people have liked it, what would?

If huge sales growth over many years and company investment doesn’t tell you it has been popular and liked what the heck would?!

This part is without question. Now do “I” like it is another separate question…

 

[FrozenNorth]

I wish this was more prevalent, say apprenticeships for GMing. I tried to show a new GM the ropes but it didn't go too well.

I had an awkward experience a while back related to a new GM who was a good friend of mine.

That sounds terrible! I think most people have some DM horror stories.

On the other hand, most of us have some great stories as well. My three sons have tried their hands at DMing.

The oldest (13) created their own Agatha Christie style murder mystery. Despite the fact that this is one of the harder genres to create, we had a great time.

The second son (10) created a heist campaign. Again, a lot of fun in a tough genre.

The youngest (7) did a straightforward dungeon crawl. It went well and he is already preparing a second adventure (this time a prepublished adventure).

 

[FrozenNorth]

The OP asks what should or could we do about this perceived problem.
The simple dirty solution being that every table that is able to, can take on 1 more player.

What we can do:

• reassure players that DMing isn’t that hard. Most of the people on the board started when they were 12, probably with a straightforward 5-room dungeon;
• nudge players to take over DM duties. If you are playing a long term campaign, take an off-week and encourage one of your players to run a one-shot. Great for both of you!
• be encouraging when players do run. Don’t nitpick and criticize every point. Don’t hold them to high standards for a first try. Point out the aspects that you liked the best of the campaign.
• as a player, always remember that YOU are also a driver of the gaming experience. Instead of skipping over a long rest, ask other characters about their backstories, start drinking contests or story contests. React to stuff that affects other characters. This reduces pressure on DMs and also creates bonds between the characters.

 

[Art Waring]

That sounds terrible! I think most people have some DM horror stories.

On the other hand, most of us have some great stories as well. My three sons have tried their hands at DMing.

The oldest (13) created their own Agatha Christie style murder mystery. Despite the fact that this is one of the harder genres to create, we had a great time.

The second son (10) created a heist campaign. Again, a lot of fun in a tough genre.

The youngest (7) did a straightforward dungeon crawl. It went well and he is already preparing a second adventure (this time a prepublished adventure).

Awesome! congrats to you on getting them into a creative hobby! that's pretty cool to get them interested that early.

As for the horror story, It's been a few years now, so I am sure their DMing has improved considerably since then, since I do trust that those that apply themselves will always improve in some way.