D&D General The DM Shortage

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I have. The bulk of 5E players I've run for seem to think the RAW is some kind of holy computer code that must be run precisely and perfectly or else they blow a gasket. I've had players rage quit over less. Legit never saw that until 5E.
I've had the opposite experience. 3e is where the rules lawyers thrived, because there were rules for almost everything. 5e is too vague and open for them to get much of a grasp on. I make a ruling about something and they can't argue the minutiae, because there really isn't much of it out there.
 

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MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
@bloodtide That's not a general DM issue. That's an issue with making good judgements in who you associate with. These kinds of diatribes can be made against any over generalized group of people in any social setting, whether at work or at play. I realize that in some areas the pool of players is slim pickings, but if you are not averse to online play, location is no longer a barrier to finding a group of people that are a good fit for the kind of game you want to run.

DMs are in demand, as this and many other similar threads demonstrate. My best advice, from personal experience, is to put in the work up front in vetting players. Clearly articulate in your call for players what kind of campaign you want to run. The rule system, the settings, themes that it may cover, and themes that are not welcome. Discuss expectations with potential players individually, either over a video call or by e‑mail. Yeah, it seems like a lot of work to "interview" players, and it can be awkward if you have not done it before. But it is much less awkward than having to deal with a player that is not a good fit for your group or the kind of game you want to run after you have already started the campaign.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Running 5E is realwork,especially for new GMs. It needs to be less work. It was less work in 1985. Find out why and fix it.

Make all video games very simple, with highly pixelated monochrome graphics, and few multiplayer options. Get rid of streaming services. There. Fixed. ;-)
 

I'd expect the greater problem was that they were players who dared to learn the rules and expect the game to be played by them.
Well there's a difference between players who know the rules and players who optimize by finding every niche rules interaction (coffeelock, etc). The former are great to have at the table: they make dming easier because they can step in if a DM doesn't know a rule. The latter making dming (and playing) a bit of a chore, IMO.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
I've had the opposite experience. 3e is where the rules lawyers thrived, because there were rules for almost everything. 5e is too vague and open for them to get much of a grasp on. I make a ruling about something and they can't argue the minutiae, because there really isn't much of it out there.
Ah. Another mark in the “good thing I skipped 3X” column then. Sounds like it would have made me rage quit. Coming from AD&D to 4E to 5E, things look a bit different. 4E had more rules and minutiae, for sure, but not so much with the rules nitpicky lawyering.
 

Reynard

Legend
Lots of games read terrible and play great. AD&D is one. Other games read great and play terrible. 3.0 is one. I think 5E skirts the line by both reading and playing terribly.

Ok, that's hyperbole, but it is a game that tries to make so many compromises both in design and presentation that does nothing particularly well. Yet it is the undisputed market leader and the most popular version of D&D ever, so what do I know?
 

Oofta

Legend
Lots of games read terrible and play great. AD&D is one. Other games read great and play terrible. 3.0 is one. I think 5E skirts the line by both reading and playing terribly.

Ok, that's hyperbole, but it is a game that tries to make so many compromises both in design and presentation that does nothing particularly well. Yet it is the undisputed market leader and the most popular version of D&D ever, so what do I know?
See, I liked 3.x better than AD&D, at least up to level 15 or so, which I never achieved in AD&D. We can all make statements about what we liked or didn't like, what was easier or more difficult, what worked or didn't. It's all just personal experience and preferences.
 

Reynard

Legend
See, I liked 3.x better than AD&D, at least up to level 15 or so, which I never achieved in AD&D. We can all make statements about what we liked or didn't like, what was easier or more difficult, what worked or didn't. It's all just personal experience and preferences.
I called out 3.0 because of balance issues -- which are understandable given how new many of the concepts were. But there were definitely some unforseen synergies and weird rule interactions that made that game bonkers. Granted I love certain kinds of "bonkers" in gaming so I am sometimes nostalgic for 3.0.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Ah. Another mark in the “good thing I skipped 3X” column then. Sounds like it would have made me rage quit. Coming from AD&D to 4E to 5E, things look a bit different. 4E had more rules and minutiae, for sure, but not so much with the rules nitpicky lawyering.
Nah he's half right half wrong. 3.x still had a lot of areas where the player was behind the 8ball that the GM could point to or even deploy on the fly. Take the dc table (it went from -10 to 43) & there was still the bonus types/dm's best friend that could add or subtract +2/-2 for each of whatever plausible reasons a gm could come up with.

For what it's worth the dc43 example was
  • Example: Track a goblin that passed over harda week ago, and it snowed yesterday
  • Roll(Key Ability): survival(wis)
  • Who could do it: A 20th-level ranger who has maxed out his Survival skill and has been fighting goblinoids as his favored enemy since 1st level
  • This is below the table:
    • ""Who Could Do It: An example of a character that would have about a 50% chance to succeed. When this entry names a character by class,
      it assumes that the character has the skill in question. (Other characters might have a better or worse chance to succeed.)"
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
The "RAW is holy writ" thing did start in 3e, in my experience. The factors that led to it's inception are quite interesting, and I wish I had the patience to do some detailed research- it seems like the kind of information that would be important for posterity.

Simply put, as near as I can tell, it resulted from a combination of factors, the most notably being the internet and WotC forums. Previously, one player's contact with others was limited to chance encounters or going to a convention- most gaming groups in a given geographical area seemed to have very similar views of the rules and how they worked (or didn't).

DM fiat was a huge deal in the AD&D era, especially, where you had to do some deep diving to find some rules buried in the text, and even once you knew about them, you might balk at applying them.

I used to play a fun game with other AD&D players where I would bring up a rule that totally exists and have them argue with me that no such rule ever existed. Then, once I proved it to them, they would just mutter something about how "we didn't play it that way".

(My personal favorite was found in the saving throws section of the 2e PHB, where it allowed you to add your armor's magical bonus to saving throws, which I'll put here).

armorsave.jpg

But suddenly, many players and DM's were on forums, talking about the new edition. When discussing the game, it was quickly realized that having a discussion where everyone is using their house rules was usually a non-starter, so it became convenient to discuss the rules as written. But even more, this is where people really started to compare notes about the (ab)uses of DM fiat in the AD&D era. Nightmare DM stories proved quite popular, and many players started to realize that their DM's would often substitute the rules of the game for their own whims, and in the hands of some DM's, this created a miserable experience.

And so players started to demand that the DM play by the rules, so that things would be "fair" (whether or not this led to actual fairness I can't say- as was eventually determined, WotC's rules could lead to some very broken situations). Players could point towards encounter design guidelines, encounters per day, xp guidelines, and wealth guidelines, as well as the fact that some kind of magic items were assumed by the game, and would pressure their DM's to not deny them things the game itself was telling them they should have.

The fact that even monsters now generally had to follow the same rules as characters was the start of a "transparency era", where players felt entitled to knowing how things in the game worked, especially given the descriptions for knowledge checks.

Some old school DMing strategies became reviled, such as low magic campaigns, denying players information about things in the game world, and the "plot railroad".

A general sense of "if the DM follows the guidelines, the game will function just fine" came about, to the point that if you, as a DM, went to an online forum looking for advice, the very first response you'd get would very likely be "are you following the wealth by level guidelines?"

When 4e was created, the developers doubled down on this transparency, making sure to tell DM's that it was better to not keep players in the dark about how things worked, as it let them make more meaningful decisions.

Now, at no point did the DM ever lose their power of fiat; in fact, every game usually had a fairly extensive list of houserules. But some DM's did, in fact, balk at the idea that a Fighter would be expected to have a +1 sword by level 2 or 3 (and that the game's math was built around this assumption). Or that players could make their own magic items. Or that players could make a DC 20 Knowledge check and know pertinent information about a monster they were fighting.

I'm not going to weigh in on which approach is better, though I have my preference. While the new approach tended to avoid "gotcha" moments, which I've never cared for as a player or DM, many DM's did, in fact, feel like they had lost control of the game. It used to be that you accepted the DM's rulings or you didn't play D&D.

Suddenly, it felt like that was inverted- that unless the DM had the players' trust, they would revolt.
 

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