D&D (2024) December 1st UA Spell changes

[Chaosmancer]

Oka then, show us WotC's secret balance numbers that you have access to and are using to base your complaint on.

Why would they have secret balance numbers instead of the numbers out in the open in the books? They've flat told us what they expect for the damage of a monster based on its CR, and we can trivially see the player information. There is nothing hidden here, so you don't need "secret balance numbers" at all. This is just a blatant attempt to pretend like I have nothing but feelings, while ignoring the numbers I've been using.

There's a reason I say that balance is a range. You'd know that if you listened to understand instead of listening to respond.

So, how big of a range? What kind of factors go into this range that you clearly have access to and knowledge of? Can you provide evidence instead of just making assertions as though they were facts.

Mitigation is one piece of the puzzle, which is your failure. You don't seem to grasp that these abilities are part of a whole and the whole of not only the PC, but the whole party over the entire adventuring day is what the game is balanced around.

What abilities? I've talked HP, mitigation, Healing, AC, Damage... again, instead of just saying that I'm only looking at "one piece" why don't you actually tell me what you think I'm missing.

Because right now, I've covered the VAST majority of the things that could possibly be factors, but you keep saying that I'm only looking at one thing and ignoring everything else. And since you aren't giving any example, I'm left wondering if this is just theater because you don't have an actual point to argue against me with.

Maybe you haven't played the game before and don't understand that utility spells get used during the day.

Ad Hominen's won't help you. Especially for such a weak position.

They're going to use them. As for fighters and utility, perhaps you missed in all your ignoring of what I have been saying that fighters need help in the other two pillars.

So, here is an interesting point. The Fighters are going to lag... as in they can't solve the challenges. So, are you imagining that these two teams are facing two different sets of challenges, to force the clerics to use spells while also allowing Fighters to actually progress through the day?

And, what are they going to use? Which Utility spells are these clerics using? "Some of them?" That isn't an answer. It is just yet another vague assertion. I'm not going to recant my assertions just because you make vague unsubstantiated claims.

Many? You have literally used up every 2nd to 5th level slot for your combat damage. They only have four 1st level spells and one 6th level spell for those "many" slots.

Wrong. Four 1st, two 5th and one 6th. Why do you keep having so much trouble keeping track of this? It really shows a lack of care that I have had to constantly correct you on what I've been saying.

You haven't demonstrated any such thing. You incorrectly used more slots than clerics have to attack in every combat, while at the same time using those same slots for healing, and ignoring the fact that clerics will use spells for utility. 1+1 doesn't equal 7. You don't get to use more slots than you have.

In order.

Yes I did.
No I didn't use more slots than clerics have.
No, I've only used a single slot from each character for healing.
No, I haven't been ignoring utility. I've been asking you what utility they are being required to use. You have refused to answer and instead insisted I don't play DnD.
You are correct, 1+1 = 2. And 4+3+3+3+2+1-3-3-3 = 7
Again, I've never used more slots than were had. You just seem to have a hard time counting, which is why I explained it below. You'd think that would have you take back this part of your post where you just demonstrate your inability to follow along.

Oh, so now your statement that they used their 5th level spells in the 7th fight is false?

I never made that assertion. I never followed the damage into the 7th fight, simply noting that by the time they reach the 7th fight they still have two 5th level spell slots, if we wanted to continue,.

And what about an 8th?

I never did the 8th fight, beyond noting that it would take until the 8th fight for the Fighter to have as much healing. I figured demonstrating they were behind on damage for 6 fights out of the day was sufficient.

And the utility that will be used despite your protestations?

Despite my asking for clarification on what utility you think a cleric will be using in this scenario, you have never once stated any. I am not protesting the use of utility spells, I'm asking what scenarios do you think that Team Fighter could solve without spells, that Team Cleric would be forced to use spells to solve.

Since we have reached the end of your post, and you never answered this, allow me to posit something. You claimed that every party was balanced, against every party, by looking at all party resources. You claim this to be true, despite any build differences. Now then, are you aware that some people want to play blasters? That a cleric might load up on damage and healing spells, and not prepare any utility spells? Are you also aware that I have only stated three leveled spells (Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, Heal) and that the cleric can prepare approximately 14 spells at 11th level, meaning there are 11 other spells they could prepare... which could be ritual spells that do not require a spell slot? Are you also aware that clerics can have more than one cantrip, and since I have only used a cantrip that would not come from the class that there are a potential 5 cantrips that could be referenced that I have not considered yet. Additionally, clerics have skills, and skills could have utility uses, it is sort of their entire thing.

So, beyond not all players wanting to play a utility character, we have ritual utility spells, and cantrips, and skills... all of which can cover any challenge that we can assume fighter's can cover with skills, since this cleric group has FAR more options than the fighters for utility. Which is strange, since that is while playing damage dealers that could potentially out-damage the fighters. And having comparable Hp, and the same AC.

Oh, and only having heal available is going to be death for those clerics. The way combats work they will be brought low or knocked out in multiple encounters. More often than 4 heal spells can handle.

Would they? Can you demonstrate this, or is this just another instance of "trust me, I'm right"? Because it seems to completely ignore those Hit Dice. I didn't mention them, but that's because I was accounting for class resources, and both groups were taking short rests, and therefore getting Hit Dice usage. I didn't think I needed to state them, because they would be obvious. Of course, now that I have been show repeatedly you can't count spell slots, I'm really far less certain.

You excluded feats which are the same as non-core rules. Either optional rules are usable or they aren't. You don't get to use some optional rules and then exclude the other side from also using them.

No. I excluded feats for the Fighters specifically. You claimed, again, that parties were balanced based on resources at the party level. That two disparate parties with completely different abilities and resources and builds are in fact balanced against each other. The Fighter's all took ASI's and have much higher stats, as demonstrated in the numbers. Or, are you going to claim that ASIs are not balanced vs feats? Funny, since again, when I asked the question:

"Because if you take the correct combination of abilities, the clerics can deal 3d8+2d8+wis+4d8+wis every round for a fight, while still having the Heal spells, so is that really balanced against 4 fighters with no feats? "

You said "Yes".

So, were you wrong before, or did you just not understand the question. Again.

 

[Maxperson]

Why would they have secret balance numbers instead of the numbers out in the open in the books?

They design based around their formula, not the DMG guidelines.

So, how big of a range? What kind of factors go into this range that you clearly have access to and knowledge of?

You need to ask WotC and see if they will share it with you. I don't work for them and probably couldn't share due to an NDA if I did.

What abilities? I've talked HP, mitigation, Healing, AC, Damage... again, instead of just saying that I'm only looking at "one piece" why don't you actually tell me what you think I'm missing.

Everything from Action Surge to fast movement to save or suck to portent. It all makes a difference and factors in. A single spell doing less healing than you want it to doesn't mean that it's underpowered.

So, here is an interesting point. The Fighters are going to lag... as in they can't solve the challenges. So, are you imagining that these two teams are facing two different sets of challenges, to force the clerics to use spells while also allowing Fighters to actually progress through the day?

They will lag outside of the combat pillar, yes.

And, what are they going to use? Which Utility spells are these clerics using? "Some of them?" That isn't an answer. It is just yet another vague assertion. I'm not going to recant my assertions just because you make vague unsubstantiated claims.

Really? You need me to read you the utility spells clerics get? And I already listed 3 or 4 several posts ago. Didn't you read those?

Wrong. Four 1st, two 5th and one 6th. Why do you keep having so much trouble keeping track of this? It really shows a lack of care that I have had to constantly correct you on what I've been saying.

You used your 5th level slots in one of the fights according to your posts. Those are no longer available.

No I didn't use more slots than clerics have.

You did if you didn't factor in utility.

No, I've only used a single slot from each character for healing.

You do know that most combats see combatants go unconscious or very low in hit points, right. Often multiples. If you only have 1 slot for each cleric, they're going to TPK. They aren't as durable as fighters.

I never made that assertion. I never followed the damage into the 7th fight, simply noting that by the time they reach the 7th fight they still have two 5th level spell slots, if we wanted to continue,.

So either they use them, or they die because 4 PCs using only cantrips or maybe 1st level spells aren't going to fare well against an 11th level encounter.

I never did the 8th fight, beyond noting that it would take until the 8th fight for the Fighter to have as much healing. I figured demonstrating they were behind on damage for 6 fights out of the day was sufficient.

So you just arbitrarily announced fighter damage? Which subclass did you use? I'm guessing you went with the Champion, which is the weakest.

Despite my asking for clarification on what utility you think a cleric will be using in this scenario, you have never once stated any. I am not protesting the use of utility spells, I'm asking what scenarios do you think that Team Fighter could solve without spells, that Team Cleric would be forced to use spells to solve.

This is a Red Herring. Fighters don't have to be able to solve them. Clerics WILL use them regardless of what another group might have done or not done.

So, beyond not all players wanting to play a utility character, we have ritual utility spells, and cantrips, and skills... all of which can cover any challenge that we can assume fighter's can cover with skills, since this cleric group has FAR more options than the fighters for utility. Which is strange, since that is while playing damage dealers that could potentially out-damage the fighters. And having comparable Hp, and the same AC.

They don't have comparable HP. They will be behind due to the fighter's larger hit dice and greater average con.

Would they? Can you demonstrate this, or is this just another instance of "trust me, I'm right"? Because it seems to completely ignore those Hit Dice. I didn't mention them, but that's because I was accounting for class resources, and both groups were taking short rests, and therefore getting Hit Dice usage. I didn't think I needed to state them, because they would be obvious. Of course, now that I have been show repeatedly you can't count spell slots, I'm really far less certain.

I have years of game play where monsters dish out lots of damage in every fight. Heal is one use. Since it doesn't carry over and you have 4 clerics who will need healing in most fights, 4 heal spells aren't going to be that good.

No. I excluded feats for the Fighters specifically. You claimed, again, that parties were balanced based on resources at the party level. That two disparate parties with completely different abilities and resources and builds are in fact balanced against each other. The Fighter's all took ASI's and have much higher stats, as demonstrated in the numbers. Or, are you going to claim that ASIs are not balanced vs feats? Funny, since again, when I asked the question:

No. If you can use optional rules from other books, fighters can use optional feats instead of wasting ASIs on stats that they don't need.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Jeremy Crawford just admitted, that the fighters should have abilities that help them deal the damage which are currently available as feats.
So comparing anything to the fighter who does not use feats seems not fair.

 

[James Gasik]

Jeremy Crawford just admitted, that the fighters should have abilities that help them deal the damage which are currently available as feats.
So comparing anything to the fighter who does not use feats seems not fair.

It's kind of strange though- up until the playtest, Feats were optional and not every game used them. So does this mean that not using Feats made the game unbalanced?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It's kind of strange though- up until the playtest, Feats were optional and not every game used them. So does this mean that not using Feats made the game unbalanced?

Probably yes. Not totally but a bit. It always felt that the fighter got shortchanged then.
I hope that Crawford lets deeds follow his words and design powerful abilities for the warrior group.

Edit: Also, feats are still optional mostly.
Only first level feats seem mandatory.

 

[mellored]

It's kind of strange though- up until the playtest, Feats were optional and not every game used them. So does this mean that not using Feats made the game unbalanced?

Getting +2 to your attack stat, and +2 to Con or Dex is just as strong as most feats.

But once you max those, getting +2 to your third favorite stat doesn't match a feat.
And for fighters in particular, they can max faster.

 

[Chaosmancer]

They design based around their formula, not the DMG guidelines.

Where do you think the DMG guidelines for designing things for 5e CAME from? Do you think they designed stuff, had a formula that was balanced, then gave DMs a DIFFERENT formula for designing stuff? That isn't incompetent, that is flat-out malicious.

You need to ask WotC and see if they will share it with you. I don't work for them and probably couldn't share due to an NDA if I did.

AKA, I have no idea, yet I am asserting it as an undeniable fact but cannot even give you any guidance on what I am saying means.

Everything from Action Surge to fast movement to save or suck to portent. It all makes a difference and factors in. A single spell doing less healing than you want it to doesn't mean that it's underpowered.

Clerics and fighters don't have fast movement or portent. I'm not considering any save or suck spells either.

Now, Action Surge I did not calculate in. It is possible that could push the damage up before the 6th fight. I'm not sure exactly how one extra round of combat would work out, but it could be half a combat by fight number 6. I hadn't considered short rests when I was at that initial point, and I didn't go back to cover it after I talked about short rests, figuring we could cover it later.

And yet.. I've been struggling even to get you to understand the spell usage, so I never went back to Action Surge.

Also, do you realize that if I can't look at a spell and figure if it is underpowered, no one can look at a spell and determine if it is OVERpowered either, right? Any time you've looked at something and said it is too powerful, you've done exactly what I'm doing here. And I know you have discussed balance before, without taking this stance of it being impossible to determine balance.

They will lag outside of the combat pillar, yes.

Lag how? What is going on outside of the combat pillar that they will lag in doing in this example? If they are able to proceed while lagging, then there is no reason to assume the cleric's can't as well.

Really? You need me to read you the utility spells clerics get? And I already listed 3 or 4 several posts ago. Didn't you read those?

Of course I know what spells they get, but that isn't the point. Sure, They get Water Breathing, do you need water breathing in a dungeon crawl? The answer is "sometimes" but they can also swim for 2 to 3 minutes, meaning that you'd need them to have to cover over 600 ft of distance for that to even be a concern. Augury? Augury is nice, but not nessecary. Not casting Augury is just not asking the DM if you are about to make a bad decision. Or maybe Purify Food and Drink, setting aside that they have the 1st level slots to do so, they are also seemingly in a dungeon crawl, and so that is far less likely to be needed.

What you seem to be doing is conflating the fact that they HAVE utility spells with this idea that they are REQUIRED to use them. Which is false. Just because they have access to those spells, does not mean they are required to utilize them in any given day.

You used your 5th level slots in one of the fights according to your posts. Those are no longer available.

No I did not.

You did if you didn't factor in utility.

No I would not, because you haven't established any need for utility.

You do know that most combats see combatants go unconscious or very low in hit points, right. Often multiples. If you only have 1 slot for each cleric, they're going to TPK. They aren't as durable as fighters.

No, most fights do not see that. If you are dropping people to 0 hp every single fight, you have warped things. If you would like to prove that you aren't, provide evidence, not just empty assertions.

So either they use them, or they die because 4 PCs using only cantrips or maybe 1st level spells aren't going to fare well against an 11th level encounter.

Who says? They might do very well against a level 11 encounter. Or maybe in fight number 7 they do decide to use them, but either way I didn't cover fight number 7, so your accusations are still false.

So you just arbitrarily announced fighter damage? Which subclass did you use? I'm guessing you went with the Champion, which is the weakest.

Really? How do you know the Champion is the weakest? You have to account for all resources of the party, and the range of balance, so how are you determining the champion is underpowered?

And I did not arbitrarily announce the damage, I went sword and board, to mirror the cleric having a shield for matching AC. one-handed martial weapons are 1d8, which is where my numbers came from.

This is a Red Herring. Fighters don't have to be able to solve them. Clerics WILL use them regardless of what another group might have done or not done.

Why? Did they all sign a compact declaring they will use utility spells even if not neccessary so that Maxperson's claims of balance would be true? You keep asserting this opinion like it is a fact, but it is not a fact. The Clerics may choose NOT to use any utility spells. Nothing says they are required to prepare them, and nothing says they are required to cast them, and nothing says they are required to cast them with spell slots instead of as rituals.

They don't have comparable HP. They will be behind due to the fighter's larger hit dice and greater average con.

Behind yes, but that doesn't make them incomparable.

I have years of game play where monsters dish out lots of damage in every fight. Heal is one use. Since it doesn't carry over and you have 4 clerics who will need healing in most fights, 4 heal spells aren't going to be that good.

So, you are saying that Heal isn't sufficient healing for the amount of damage the monsters will be dishing out? Based only on your "years of game play"?

So, you would be saying that ~85 hp, plus the 70 from heal will not be enough to get through two fights and use HD? I'm making sure I understand your claim here, since you are just stating things and not backing it up beyond "I have experience"

No. If you can use optional rules from other books, fighters can use optional feats instead of wasting ASIs on stats that they don't need.

So, you are saying that the two parties are not balanced against each other?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Jeremy Crawford just admitted, that the fighters should have abilities that help them deal the damage which are currently available as feats.
So comparing anything to the fighter who does not use feats seems not fair.

If Max had said at the beginning that a team with feats compared to a team without them was unfair, I would have potentially given feats. He did not. He said that they were balanced, because Fighters could go for longer. It is the classic argument that martials being able to "go all day" is how they are balanced.

Kind of difficult to accept that the premise is unfair over halfway through the discussion, once he realized that the numbers were against him.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Getting +2 to your attack stat, and +2 to Con or Dex is just as strong as most feats.

But once you max those, getting +2 to your third favorite stat doesn't match a feat.
And for fighters in particular, they can max faster.

And for this scenario, Fighters are only level 11. That is only three feats I think (I'd have to check if they got one at 10th)

So, it is possible they are only just reaching the 20 in both strength and con

 

[Maxperson]

Where do you think the DMG guidelines for designing things for 5e CAME from? Do you think they designed stuff, had a formula that was balanced, then gave DMs a DIFFERENT formula for designing stuff? That isn't incompetent, that is flat-out malicious.

Those design things don't include the hidden math. They just all fit. You could not for instance, complete invent a new ability and rate it without having a very good chance of getting it wrong. They would be very unlikely to get it wrong, because they have the hidden stuff.

Clerics and fighters don't have fast movement or portent.

Fine. Since you want to be pedantic about it. Clerics have channel divinity and domain abilities. Fighters have fighting styles, feats(since you insist on optional rules being usable), indomitable, etc.

I'm not considering any save or suck spells either.

Why not? Clerics have those.

Now, Action Surge I did not calculate in. It is possible that could push the damage up before the 6th fight. I'm not sure exactly how one extra round of combat would work out, but it could be half a combat by fight number 6. I hadn't considered short rests when I was at that initial point, and I didn't go back to cover it after I talked about short rests, figuring we could cover it later.

3 action surges, since it's not hard to have at least 2 short rests.

Also, do you realize that if I can't look at a spell and figure if it is underpowered, no one can look at a spell and determine if it is OVERpowered either, right? Any time you've looked at something and said it is too powerful, you've done exactly what I'm doing here. And I know you have discussed balance before, without taking this stance of it being impossible to determine balance.

If I've said something is too powerful, that's purely my opinion about how it works in my game. Not a fact. And people here have said that it works just fine and isn't overpowered in their games.

Having the opinion is fine. Change the healing spell for your game and be done with it, just like I nerf or ban things I think are too powerful or disrupt the campaign.

Lag how? What is going on outside of the combat pillar that they will lag in doing in this example? If they are able to proceed while lagging, then there is no reason to assume the cleric's can't as well.

That's horribly wrong. Just because you can suffer through something, taking lots of damage or having to go around obstacles, doesn't mean that clerics who can avoid issues aren't better at it.

I'll let you look at some of the fighter threads to see exactly how they lag in social and exploration.

Of course I know what spells they get, but that isn't the point. Sure, They get Water Breathing, do you need water breathing in a dungeon crawl? The answer is "sometimes" but they can also swim for 2 to 3 minutes, meaning that you'd need them to have to cover over 600 ft of distance for that to even be a concern. Augury? Augury is nice, but not nessecary. Not casting Augury is just not asking the DM if you are about to make a bad decision. Or maybe Purify Food and Drink, setting aside that they have the 1st level slots to do so, they are also seemingly in a dungeon crawl, and so that is far less likely to be needed.

What you seem to be doing is conflating the fact that they HAVE utility spells with this idea that they are REQUIRED to use them. Which is false. Just because they have access to those spells, does not mean they are required to utilize them in any given day.

No. I'm saying that some will be used, not that they are required. That's how players work. If there's a problem and they have a utility spell that will solve it, it will almost always be cast.

No, most fights do not see that. If you are dropping people to 0 hp every single fight, you have warped things. If you would like to prove that you aren't, provide evidence, not just empty assertions.

I love how you ignores the "or" portion of that statement in order to twist my words into "dropping people to 0 hp every single fight."

Really? How do you know the Champion is the weakest? You have to account for all resources of the party, and the range of balance, so how are you determining the champion is underpowered?

The champion is not underpowered. It is the weakest of the fighter classes. Battle Masters have more battle utility through their maneuvers and also deal more damage. I find it convenient that you went out of your way to say no feats and use the weakest fighter in order to try and show that clerics are better, and you didn't even really manage to do that.

And I did not arbitrarily announce the damage, I went sword and board, to mirror the cleric having a shield for matching AC. one-handed martial weapons are 1d8, which is where my numbers came from.

You don't need matching AC. The fighter is better off with a two handed weapon and great weapon master.

Behind yes, but that doesn't make them incomparable.

Behind by at least 22 hit points is not comparable.

So, you are saying that Heal isn't sufficient healing for the amount of damage the monsters will be dishing out? Based only on your "years of game play"?

It only helps in one fight out of the 6-8 for the adventuring day. Then they die.

So, you are saying that the two parties are not balanced against each other?

I'm saying that if you get to use optional rules for the clerics, the fighters get to as well.