5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

[Cleon]

That is, indeed, quite remarkable! I suppose the 1E metallic dragons had better ACs because they were of good alignment and D&D was "a game of heroic fantasy" and therefore good = better. I cannot begin to fathom why chromatic dragons suddenly have the edge over metallic dragons AC-wise.

It's not AC, it's CR.

But it's only baby Chromatics that are tougher, the grownups cover the same Challenge Ranges. Adult Chromatics go from CR 13 to 17 and so do Adult Metallics, but Wyrmling Chromatics go from CR 2 to 4 while the Wyrmling Metallics go from CR 1 to 3.

Hatchling Chromes have more HD and do more damage than Metals so boast a higher Challenge.

It must make Dragon Kindergarden unpleasant!

 

[Cleon]

AC seems OK, especially since it would satisfy my 2E notion of DWs actually being equipped with dragon scale armor, which explains the color and can also serve to explain their immunity to the breath weapon of the parent dragon - sort of.
Having a better AC than scale alone would perhaps also satisfy the desire to to equip them with shields as per the illustration, especially since I'm still inclined to ignore the shields for the reasons I mentioned upthread, most notably that they are not mentioned in the original text.

I prefer them without shields but frankly don't care whether it says (natural armor) or (scale mail) in their Armor Class if we keep the "Equipment crumbling to dust" part of the original monster.

It makes no difference to the mechanics and I was assuming a Dragon Warrior monstrosity with dragon scale skin would look identical to a humanoid Dragon Warrior wearing dragon scale mail.

However, if the armor doesn't disintegrate then it becomes very valuable loot. Immunity to a damage type is pretty meaty after all. I don't want the PCs stripping four suits of +4 scale mail of fire immunity off the bodies of the Gold Dragon Warriors they just defeated.

If we use dragon scale mail, it'd place some restrictions on what Armour Class we could use. Assuming the DEXes match the dragons and dragon mail has to be at least the minimum magic armor plus of +1 if it's also enchanted with (breath type) damage immunity, then a Dragon Warrior would have to be at least AC 15 (+1 scale mail, DEX 10) and might go up to, say, AC 21 (+5 scale mail, DEX 14).

However, I'd rather make it natural armor as it makes it easier to explain why it can't be stolen or looted and dusts away upon death. Besides, if it's a literal suit of armor that raises weird questions like: what does a naked Dragon Warrior look like? What happens if they wear another Dragon Warrior's armor? Or a different non-draconic armor, like an ordinary Chain Shirt?

 

[Cleon]

Ditto - just got goddamn hot and sticky here too

It's unseasonally mild over here, like 9 Centigrade or something, and a little damp.

Fixed shadowdancer to here

Updated the Completed Fifth Edition Creatures Index and White Dwarf Conversion Index.

 

[Cleon]

I assume you would base this on the various stats of the relevant dragons instead of just making them up?

Yes, the Dexterity scores I suggested are what 5E Dragons of those types have.

I like the idea of needing some sort of conversion/ritual/spell/thingy to make them permanent. The original WD21 canon is that they are very clearly a temporary one-shot critter. But somehow linking it to Cadmus/Jason's sown men is a great idea so trying to link them and enrich the lore (like we did for Pine Kindred).

I see no need of specifying a particular magical process, just have a paragraph in the Description called Children of the Dragon's Teeth or the like that explains their mythical origins and mentions magic items that temporarily produce Dragon Warriors exist, then present a figurine of wondrous power - dragon warrior variant that does so. Maybe call it a fang of wondrous power - dragon warrior?

Anyhow since I was preferring them to be Monstrosities, I'm obviously fine with the approach of making them living creatures. The fact that the mythical originals could crossbreed with normal humans might be an argument for them being Humanoid, but that's not an iron rule. There are plenty of monsters of the Monstrosity type that are human-ish or part human, including some from Greek myth like Centaurs and the Minotaur. Plus Greek legend is not noted for being bothered by realworld biological restrictions. It's those pesky Gods and their fondness for animal-human hybrids.

That is an argument against Construct though. There are some "Living Constructs" in D&D such as the Warforged, but those aren't capable of interbreeding with humanoids. The few capable of reproduction, such as the Clockwork Horrors, usually do so by building more constructs from raw materials rather than employing sexual reproduction (i.e. laying eggs, getting pregnant) or asexually splitting into two new creatures like many oozes do.

That leaves Humanoid and Monstrosity and I still lean towards the second.

 

[Cleon]

Ah, yes.
But why did you decide on them being chaotic evil in the first place? As far as I know, the original doesn't mention alignment at all.

Yes, the Mini-Module just says they are servants of "some dark lord of the lower planes" which suggests Evil but they could also be NE or LE.

It's ages ago, but I vaguely recall Casimir made them CE demons in his first draft and we just stuck with it.

All of the new monsters in The Halls of Tizun Thane with stated alignments are Chaotic (Nandie CN, Nandie-Bear CE, Gu'en-Deeko CN) and the humans too (Tizun's guards-turned-bandits are CN apart from one, Ulgon, who is CE; his brother Diker Thane is CN and his half-brother Sega is CE).

The Green Goblin, Shadow Dancers and a few other NPCs don't have alignments stated.

It would seem weird for Shadowdancers to be Lawful Evil surrounded by all those Chaotic characters. The adventure is basically an oldschool "Nest of Chaos" the PCs' party stumble upon.

That said, I could see the Shadowdancers being generic fiends being generic fiends without the (demon) subtype and maybe "any evil alignment" or "neutral evil" instead of CE, but I'm fine with them as they are.

 

[ilgatto]

It's not AC, it's CR.

I see.
Well, still have to learn a lot about 5E terminology.

 

[ilgatto]

I prefer them without shields but frankly don't care whether it says (natural armor) or (scale mail) in their Armor Class if we keep the "Equipment crumbling to dust" part of the original monster.

It makes no difference to the mechanics and I was assuming a Dragon Warrior monstrosity with dragon scale skin would look identical to a humanoid Dragon Warrior wearing dragon scale mail.

However, if the armor doesn't disintegrate then it becomes very valuable loot. Immunity to a damage type is pretty meaty after all. I don't want the PCs stripping four suits of +4 scale mail of fire immunity off the bodies of the Gold Dragon Warriors they just defeated.

If we use dragon scale mail, it'd place some restrictions on what Armour Class we could use. Assuming the DEXes match the dragons and dragon mail has to be at least the minimum magic armor plus of +1 if it's also enchanted with (breath type) damage immunity, then a Dragon Warrior would have to be at least AC 15 (+1 scale mail, DEX 10) and might go up to, say, AC 21 (+5 scale mail, DEX 14).

However, I'd rather make it natural armor as it makes it easier to explain why it can't be stolen or looted and dusts away upon death. Besides, if it's a literal suit of armor that raises weird questions like: what does a naked Dragon Warrior look like? What happens if they wear another Dragon Warrior's armor? Or a different non-draconic armor, like an ordinary Chain Shirt?

A-a-a-a-h-a! Good point. Yes, I can now see why giving them sort of armor can be a problem, especially in the light of Mr Liber's desire to allow for them to be made permanent. I suppose I've never given the issue much thought, for WD21 says that everything disintegrates (and I would strongly support keeping that) and I've never thought of the possibility that players could try and get their hands at the armors (of course, MY players would NEVER EVER entertain such notions for they are... oh, well, who am I fooling?). By the way, I'd say this would be another strong argument for making DWs magical creations that cannot be tampered with in any way because the armors and everything the come with are, in fact, somehow and integral part of them - but that's 2E an therefore not really what we're looking for here.
How's about adding some note along the lines of "any items removed from a DW in any way instantly disintegrate into useless dust as if the DW had been destroyed?" Perhaps the DW then disintegrates as well? Note to self: Add this to the 2E conversion.

If not, then making the armor as worthless/non-magical/non-dragon-scale-armor as possible is definitely teh way to go!

As to the shields: I wouldn't add them myself because many WD illustrations take liberties with what's in the texts and what not and I tend to stick to the text in case of doubt. However, I've seen you guys do take the illustrations into account in other conversions and that's an interesting approach, so I don't really care if we go for shields.

 

[ilgatto]

Yes, the Dexterity scores I suggested are what 5E Dragons of those types have.



I see no need of specifying a particular magical process, just have a paragraph in the Description called Children of the Dragon's Teeth or the like that explains their mythical origins and mentions magic items that temporarily produce Dragon Warriors exist, then present a figurine of wondrous power - dragon warrior variant that does so. Maybe call it a fang of wondrous power - dragon warrior?

Drat! I'd been considering plays on Quaal's fang token but you've seriously outclassed me with fang of wondrous power.

Anyhow since I was preferring them to be Monstrosities, I'm obviously fine with the approach of making them living creatures. The fact that the mythical originals could crossbreed with normal humans might be an argument for them being Humanoid, but that's not an iron rule. There are plenty of monsters of the Monstrosity type that are human-ish or part human, including some from Greek myth like Centaurs and the Minotaur. Plus Greek legend is not noted for being bothered by realworld biological restrictions. It's those pesky Gods and their fondness for animal-human hybrids.

I'd say there's a difference between DWs and centaurs, minotaurs, and, for that matter, medusae, because they have definite monstrous aspects but that's probably a matter of opinion.

That is an argument against Construct though. There are some "Living Constructs" in D&D such as the Warforged, but those aren't capable of interbreeding with humanoids. The few capable of reproduction, such as the Clockwork Horrors, usually do so by building more constructs from raw materials rather than employing sexual reproduction (i.e. laying eggs, getting pregnant) or asexually splitting into two new creatures like many oozes do.

That leaves Humanoid and Monstrosity and I still lean towards the second.

Hmm... the more I think about it and it light of the above, I'm tending toward making "Monstrosity" a good second to "Humanoid". Although DWs do seem to scream "Construct" for many rule-based reasons, I still cannot get over the immunities that would give them.

But perhaps I'm still too deep into 2E. Did I pick up somewhere upthread that a 5E monster's creature types doesn't actually automatically lead to any immunities?

 

[ilgatto]

Yes, the Mini-Module just says they are servants of "some dark lord of the lower planes" which suggests Evil but they could also be NE or LE.

It's ages ago, but I vaguely recall Casimir made them CE demons in his first draft and we just stuck with it.

All of the new monsters in The Halls of Tizun Thane with stated alignments are Chaotic (Nandie CN, Nandie-Bear CE, Gu'en-Deeko CN) and the humans too (Tizun's guards-turned-bandits are CN apart from one, Ulgon, who is CE; his brother Diker Thane is CN and his half-brother Sega is CE).

The Green Goblin, Shadow Dancers and a few other NPCs don't have alignments stated.

It would seem weird for Shadowdancers to be Lawful Evil surrounded by all those Chaotic characters. The adventure is basically an oldschool "Nest of Chaos" the PCs' party stumble upon.

That said, I could see the Shadowdancers being generic fiends being generic fiends without the (demon) subtype and maybe "any evil alignment" or "neutral evil" instead of CE, but I'm fine with them as they are.

Heh. Great minds and all that.
I also checked on the alignments of Tizun Thane (TT) creatures to see whether that could lead to some clue as to the shadow dancers' (and Tizun Thane's) alignment, most notably on Diker's (DT), Sega's (ST), and Thraaak's. Didn't get me anywhere and flaming nuisance that gu'en-deekos don't get the alignments of the brains they eat.
I pondered giving TT an alignment different from DT and ST because "plotting to overthrow" could suggest such, but that left LE or NE so that was no good. I wonder whether Mr Fiore had an alignment for TT and SDs in his original concept, although that may well have been "Chaotic" because of OD&D notions.

When I (very recently) found out about Howard's The Mirrors of Tuzun Thune (here and here) things started to look up (because Cthulhu) but that, too, didn't really get me anywhere, because "alien evil" sort of made me think of Moorcock ("chaotic") instead of D&D.

In the end, I decided to go for (uniquely) "ALIGNMENT: Evil (See below)" and then added a note along the lines of "alignment may depend on that of the dark lord SDs serve" and hinted at "evil, alien dimensions", which, admittedly isn't ideal for many reasons. A bit like your suggestion of "any evil".

Anyway.

CE and "demonic" does seem to suit the SDs better than LE and "diabolic" because murder and blood and, dare I say it, Vance's demodands.

Now that we're talking shadow dancers: I noticed you made them immune to "spells", which I also did.

However, on reviewing my conversion after reading much of his thread, I noticed that the original (WD18) actually says this:

From White Dwarf 18 (GW, 1980) (p. 18)

Note the exact wording where their immunity is concerned - and the emphasis on "attacks"!

Could this be read as that shadow dancers are immune to magical attacks as opposed to spells, meaning that Magic Missile, Fireball, and the bite of Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound wouldn't affect them but that, say, Reverse Gravity or Repulsion (Stone Shape, even?) would?

Many, many, many cans of worms?

 

[ilgatto]

I like the idea of needing some sort of conversion/ritual/spell/thingy to make them permanent. The original WD21 canon is that they are very clearly a temporary one-shot critter. But somehow linking it to Cadmus/Jason's sown men is a great idea so trying to link them and enrich the lore (like we did for Pine Kindred).

In light of this:

I prefer them without shields but frankly don't care whether it says (natural armor) or (scale mail) in their Armor Class if we keep the "Equipment crumbling to dust" part of the original monster.

It makes no difference to the mechanics and I was assuming a Dragon Warrior monstrosity with dragon scale skin would look identical to a humanoid Dragon Warrior wearing dragon scale mail.

However, if the armor doesn't disintegrate then it becomes very valuable loot. Immunity to a damage type is pretty meaty after all. I don't want the PCs stripping four suits of +4 scale mail of fire immunity off the bodies of the Gold Dragon Warriors they just defeated.

If we use dragon scale mail, it'd place some restrictions on what Armour Class we could use. Assuming the DEXes match the dragons and dragon mail has to be at least the minimum magic armor plus of +1 if it's also enchanted with (breath type) damage immunity, then a Dragon Warrior would have to be at least AC 15 (+1 scale mail, DEX 10) and might go up to, say, AC 21 (+5 scale mail, DEX 14).

However, I'd rather make it natural armor as it makes it easier to explain why it can't be stolen or looted and dusts away upon death. Besides, if it's a literal suit of armor that raises weird questions like: what does a naked Dragon Warrior look like? What happens if they wear another Dragon Warrior's armor? Or a different non-draconic armor, like an ordinary Chain Shirt?