D&D 5E The Gloves Are Off?

[tetrasodium]

Absolutely. That's what I was saying.

I think all these conversations are interesting, but I wish it could be more, "Huh, that's interesting. I have a different preference, though." and less "No your opinion is not tenable. Only mine is consistent." (Not thinking of you in particular. Maybe some of the people who share some of your preferences, though.)

5e isn't designed for nuance like that. On this topic they chose one style and designed for it to the exclusion of all else even when doing so prevents adding the else in or supporting both with a sidebar about making the bar lower for more robustly designed reactions. There's not much room for differing stances on a topic designed to enforce one true way & I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect it from people trying to explain why the one true way 5e forced is problematic when their preferences were both ignored and designed against.

 

[niklinna]

New questions.

In your campaign can a character uncanny dodge a lightning bolt spell?

Rules say yes.

Reality says it takes the bolt .00015s to hit a target 60 feet away.

Is anyone here bothered by this gap in game vs narrative (which happens orders of magnitude timesat a table than counter spelling counter spells)?

Well, see now, you are reacting to the casting of the spell, not the actual bolt of lightning. And as has been mathematically and logically proven, you can use your reaction in response to a spell being cast. But not if that spell is counterspell. Because RAW and stuff.

But then there are lightning bolt from traps, and dragons, and from maybe Cloud Giants? Or maybe even actual clouds although that wouldn't happen orders of magnitide more than even basic counter spelling of spells. And you can unanny dodge those lightning bolts just fine.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Actually, the rules are very specific about how magic spells interact. There's nothing mysterious or unexpected about it. That's the D&D magic system. I'm pretty sure if there were unexpected consequences, a lot of people would complain.

No, not really or this conversation wouldn't have happened. There's plenty that's vague about a lot of D&D, including magic.

And people complain even about expected consequences, so who cares about that?

Wotc made these reaction instant interrupt abilities thinking it would make players more involved after they removed all of the tactical components that pressure players tmske plans that take longer than a single turn & pay attention so that on their turns they could react to the now removed risks of getting caught in the plans oth their opponents. The trouble is that not every interaction is equally good to the health of the game and these abilities treat them as if they are equal to justify the fact that these abilities fire on someone else's section of the playloop so that the player & their pc don't actually need to be focused vigilant or proactive.

See the way I look at it is that they wanted to allow for something like a wizard's duel, where spells can be blocked or disrupted, as we've seen in all kinds of genre fiction. But they looked at how it was done in the past and realized how much it sucked, and so they decided to make it a reaction. I don't think that breaks the game or requires the fiction to be twisted to match the rules.

 

[Mort]

New questions.

In your campaign can a character uncanny dodge a lightning bolt spell?

Rules say yes.

Reality says it takes the bolt .00015s to hit a target 60 feet away.

Is anyone here bothered by this gap in game vs narrative (which happens orders of magnitude timesat a table than counter spelling counter spells)?

Actually rules say no:

Uncanny Dodge says "when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack..."

Lightning bolt is not an attack, it is an AoE spell requiring a saving throw.

You need to have evasion (or similar ability) to half or negate its effect. But your question works just as well re: evasion.

And if the answer is no, evasion shouldn't work - I'm not sure what to say - since that is explicitly, EXPRESSELY what the ability is designed to do!

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, not really or this conversation wouldn't have happened. There's plenty that's vague about a lot of D&D, including magic.

And people complain even about expected consequences, so who cares about that?



See the way I look at it is that they wanted to allow for something like a wizard's duel, where spells can be blocked or disrupted, as we've seen in all kinds of genre fiction. But they looked at how it was done in the past and realized how much it sucked, and so they decided to make it a reaction. I don't think that breaks the game or requires the fiction to be twisted to match the rules.

No one is saying the rules don't allow for reacting to a reaction. They're saying they don't like it, and it doesn't make sense to them.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I don't think that breaks the game or requires the fiction to be twisted to match the rules.

No, it doesn't. But some people think that linear falling damage breaks immersion, or that 1st level characters knowing to burn trolls breaks immersion, or studded leather armor breaks immersion. The game is full of these things, and we each choose (perhaps subconsciously) the ones that drive us crazy.

 

[iserith]

1st level characters knowing to burn trolls breaks immersion

It's about time this got introduced into the discussion - now's my time to SHINE!

 

[tetrasodium]

No, not really or this conversation wouldn't have happened. There's plenty that's vague about a lot of D&D, including magic.

And people complain even about expected consequences, so who cares about that?



See the way I look at it is that they wanted to allow for something like a wizard's duel, where spells can be blocked or disrupted, as we've seen in all kinds of genre fiction. But they looked at how it was done in the past and realized how much it sucked, and so they decided to make it a reaction. I don't think that breaks the game or requires the fiction to be twisted to match the rules.

Apparently it's also 45F with a 2% chance of rain in Shanghai China. We are talking about the way the rules are written & the problems that arise both in gameplay & the fiction from them.

 

[Maxperson]

It's about time this got introduced into the discussion - now's my time to SHINE!

Shine or burn?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Actually rules say no:

Uncanny Dodge says "when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack..."

Lightning bolt is not an attack, it is an AoE spell requiring a saving throw.

You need to have evasion (or similar ability) to half or negate its effect. But your question works just as well re: evasion.

And if the answer is no, evasion shouldn't work - I'm not sure what to say - since that is explicitly, EXPRESSELY what the ability is designed to do!

Sorry ,my mistake. I did indeed mean evasion (no damage on a reflex save). What I get for typing while eating lunch.