It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[TwoSix]

People are so caught up in using words they aren't seeing what actually happened. Corporation had plan. Consumers and partners reacted badly. Corporation course corrected. This is what we wanted. If anything, I think that there are people that are almost disappointed in their victory. Such is life.

Oh, for sure. WotC doubling down and watching the rest of the RPG market react to that would have been stressful and damaging to many, for sure. I'm glad in the abstract that didn't happen, but I'll freely admit I'm a little bummed to not watch the chaos unfold.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A generic we.

So answer me this:

A hypothetical company frequently alternates between producing good stuff and bad stuff. Do you (A) automatically buy their stuff, hoping you managed to get them when they were producing good stuff? (B) wait for reviews to see if it's worth it? (C) decide to not buy from them again because you can never tell what sort of product you're going to get?

Because both B and C there indicate that you've lost trust in the company, while A indicates that you either don't care about quality or you have money to burn.

I think that logic does not follow.
A is bollocks.
B is probably the best answer. It does not mean I have lost trust. It means I make a sensible decision.
C depends... If I have a good alternative, which is always good I might opt into into this decision. But often there is not.
Yeah, this is the one closest to cnot trusting them" anymore. Biut actually it is not them that I trust anymore. I don't necessarily assume they tried to screw me over. I just don't have faith in their products.

 

[Faolyn]

Well, liking or not liking their books is a different kettle of fish than "trusting" them somehow. Past experience does indicate that WotC puts out quality books (I liked the Spelljammer set, personally, and the Dragonlance stuff is awesome), but past results are not indicative of future performance as such.

Their track record on product design isn't connected to their business dealings, however, so my decision to buy a given product or not is unrelated to the OGL situation. I'm getting Keys from the Golden Vault because Radiant Citadel and Candlekeep worked for me, and business shenanigans are not related to the purchase.

No, it's not. I already explained it. I can't trust them to produce quality books. I also can't trust them to not engage in "business shenanigans."

It's not like there aren't a million interesting plot hooks and nicely-done maps that can be found online and it's not like writing an adventure is that hard--just time consuming. (And in my personal experience in running CoS, I had to do so much rewriting to make the adventure interesting and actually horrific that I might as well have started from scratch.)

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Oh, for sure. WotC doubling down and watching the rest of the RPG market react to that would have been stressful and damaging to many, for sure. I'm glad in the abstract that didn't happen, but I'll freely admit I'm a little bummed to not watch the chaos unfold.

On that, two things-

First, from a purely legal standpoint, I would have been fascinated to see an actual court case. Not because I wanted the chaos, but because the underlying issues are kind of fascinating, and I would have loved to read two well-briefed summary judgments taking opposing sides on the OGL and "de-authorization." For all the armchair theorizing going on, there are some really interesting legal issues I would like to have seen fleshed out.

Second, I think that the weird, rapid, and unexpected resolution of the matter is why we are still seeing all of this vitriol. After the frenzy gets whipped up, it doesn't just dissipate. I once read a study about how people felt after various types of resolution. In the end, people (even those that lose) always felt better after the full court experience- because the combination of the ritual (courtrooms, lawyers, formality) and the belief that they were heard outweighs the disadvantages.

 

[Faolyn]

One should not underestimate the power of D&D as a feel good "life-style brand" as per how they view themselves and other people on this forum have referred to them as. Many people just want things to go back to normal and to sweep everything under the rug as if it never happened. Furthermore, it's psychologically challenging for many people to cut themselves off products, brands, and IPs that they love, especially if companies provide them with excuses to come back.

That is very true. Which is a shame because there are so many interesting games out there.

 

[Faolyn]

I think that logic does not follow.
A is bollocks.
B is probably the best answer. It does not mean I have lost trust. It means I make a sensible decision.

Yeah, that means you lost trust. Because if you have to sit back and think about it for a bit, that means you aren't just going to automatically trust the product to be worth the price.

C depends... If I have a good alternative, which is always good I might opt into into this decision. But often there is not.

There are literally thousands upon thousands of games out there that aren't WotC-D&D.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah, that means you lost trust. Because if you have to sit back and think about it for a bit, that means you aren't just going to automatically trust the product to be worth the price.

If you don't understand the differentiation in lost trust in the company and trust in the products, i can't help it.

But my faith in WotC making generally good products has never been in question. I don't think this is what this thread is all about. But if you want to make apple-orange juice, bon appetit.

Edit: I also want to make sure to clarify, that I never buy something wothout thinking about it... so probably i have a deep inherent mistrust in everything..

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Oh, for sure. WotC doubling down and watching the rest of the RPG market react to that would have been stressful and damaging to many, for sure. I'm glad in the abstract that didn't happen, but I'll freely admit I'm a little bummed to not watch the chaos unfold.

Let it burn!

Just kidding…mostly.

I am now awaiting shipment of some more D&D miniatures and I don’t like the smell of burned plastic so…

 

[Velderan]

Landlord owns an apartment building.
Landlord says that next year, they will be raising the rent $200 a month.
Tenants complain. This will be a substantial hardship, they say!
Landlord hears tenants, and agrees to not raise the rent.

Now, during the time between the announcement and the walkback, it could be argued that there was "harm." For example, I am sure it is stressful to be a tenant. Some tenants might have chosen to have moved. Others, worried about the landlord in the future, might makes plans about moving in the future, even knowing that the rent isn't going up.

Trouble is- this is such an attenuated idea of "harm," that is is difficult to have conversations with people because that's not how you normally view it. It's not a harm- it's an economic cost.

This happens all the time. You accept a job offer, move across the country, and get laid off. That sucks. It really, truly sucks. It sucks in a manner more (I would argue) than what Hasbro did. But it's not harm. Your have a contract with a supplier for widgets and they decide to sell the widgets to someone else and just pay you the damages for the breach- even though you really needed the widgets and were depending on the contract. Oh well! Next time, write a better contract.

People are so caught up in using words they aren't seeing what actually happened. Corporation had plan. Consumers and partners reacted badly. Corporation course corrected. This is what we wanted. If anything, I think that there are people that are almost disappointed in their victory. Such is life.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here really, because life isn't fair and bad things happen. The thing is I think you've oversimplified things in your examples which leaves out some context, such as the FAQ WotC had posted for years saying people could just reject any changes and continue to use whatever license they like. All those examples you provided could have similar situations (landlord having a policy that isn't directly in the contract they won't raise rent, new job verbally promising at least 12 months of employment, widget company offering you first chance to buy, etc) and if it's not in the contract, you're absolutely right that they committed no crime but it doesn't mean an ethical issue isn't raised. Should all the tenants of that apartment building plan to leave when their leases are up? Should everyone at that company find new jobs in protest? Probably not because each person's morale compass is a little bit different.

For the record since I haven't actually stated my position in this thread beyond arguing whether harm actually occurred, I don't think WotC should be boycotted and I don't think they should be commended. I think both customers and publishers should use all available information to determine for themselves what their business relationship with WotC should be. For me, it's certainly going to be buying less D&D stuff because I'm in the process of switching from a 5e campaign that's winding down to a PF2e campaign with plans to run a side FASERIP series of one shots for fun (I can't plug that game enough, it looks like so much fun!). Maybe I'll finally convince my table to play some B/X for fun. If hypothetically I were a publisher, I think continuing to use the OGL 1.0a given the last few weeks events is foolish and I'd be paying attention to how ORC develops to compare that to what WotC put in CC to see if one of those works for my products.

 

[Clint_L]

No, it's not. I already explained it. I can't trust them to produce quality books. I also can't trust them to not engage in "business shenanigans."

It's not like there aren't a million interesting plot hooks and nicely-done maps that can be found online and it's not like writing an adventure is that hard--just time consuming. (And in my personal experience in running CoS, I had to do so much rewriting to make the adventure interesting and actually horrific that I might as well have started from scratch.)

These seem like valid reasons to not buy their products, then. I'm not sure what the OGL situation has to do with it - if their products are not working for you, then that's enough.

I don't avoid Taco Bell because of their business shenanigans. I avoid them because their food does not agree with my delicate constitution.