It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[Imaro]

Yeah, that means you lost trust. Because if you have to sit back and think about it for a bit, that means you aren't just going to automatically trust the product to be worth the price.

Corporations are not my friends they don't owe me anything, why on earth would I buy something I've never bought before from any corporation sight unseen if I have the chance to better educate myself on what they are offering. It's not about trust, it's about making an informed choice.

 

[SteveC]

One thing that this is bringing to mind, and I hope it's not thought of as a derail, but a number of people have said "company X isn't my friend either!" My reaction to that is ... that's kind of sad.

I am not in the industry, but I have friends who are, and the thing they universally talk about is how small it is. How everyone knows everyone else. It is easy to get to know people who make the games you play. I still have the signed note from Mike Mearls saying that a particular change to a power in 4E should be considered official errata. I got that sharing a beverage with him a long time ago, and it let me use a particular ability (Duelist's Prowess for you 4E people) in the way that makes it useful.

I go to a gaming convention each year (Gamehole Con) where I have been able to meet and game with a ton of game designers and have really enjoyed myself. They aren't my friends exactly, but when I see a project they're working on, you bet I'm going to look at it. When 13th Age launches the Kickstarter I will be a first day backer because of my history with gaming with the creators.

From the perspective of game designers versus "corporate" types, it's my estimation that WotC is pretty much the only company that has people involved with their brand that aren't gamers. When you see something from other companies or decisions they make, you can be assured that the people who are making those decisions are gamers. They also have skin in the game because the company is so small. That's fundamentally different from WotC senior management because of Hasbro.

Here's my point: third party companies are fundamentally different from corporate WotC. The gaming part of WotC is fundamentally different from the corporate part. Should I "forgive" WotC? I don't know that I have anything to forgive the gaming part of the company for. As for the corporate? I never thought of them as my friends. That's a different world from smaller companies where if you want to engage with them, you really can, if you care and want to.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

They're both trust.

If I can't trust the company to not screw me over, then I have no reason to buy from them.
If I can't trust the company to make good products, then I have no reason to buy from them.
If I can't trust them to not screw me over or produce good products, then I have no reason to buy from them.

No denying here. But still totally different reasons. If they happen to screw you over OR do (in your opinion) bad products, by all means, don't buy from them. I would do the same. But in that case, WotC has not screwed ME over and I think they made a business decision. A dumb and unethical one, but they just pulled around at the last moment.

 

[Faolyn]

Corporations are not my friends they don't owe me anything, why on earth would I buy something I've never bought before from any corporation sight unseen if I have the chance to better educate myself on what they are offering. It's not about trust, it's about making an informed choice.

See, corporations actually do owe you something--they owe you a product that is worth the money they are charging for it. No friendship is required for this.

Up until recently, WotC has been pretty good about producing books that are worth the money. They may not have been perfect, and not everything they produced was to my personal taste or was something that I needed, but they've been good enough that I could trust that they'd produce a book that's worth the money. But that trust is gone.

Maybe you have never pre-ordered a book in your life, but you have to realize that many, many people do.

 

[Faolyn]

No denying here. But still totally different reasons. If they happen to screw you over OR do (in your opinion) bad products, by all means, don't buy from them. I would do the same. But in that case, WotC has not screwed ME over and I think they made a business decision. A dumb and unethical one, but they just pulled around at the last moment.

But can you trust that they won't make another dumb and unethical decision? Because right now, people are saying that we should just "get back onboard" with them and continue to support them when we haven't yet seen that they won't make another dumb and unethical decision--or another calculated and unethical decision? After all, this decision of theirs was dumb, yes, but it was also calculated and deliberate. They didn't just trip and fall on the "destroy other gaming and VTT companies" lever, after all.

Basically, why are people willing to trust them so blindly? Is the desire for new books so strong that people are willing to accept it when they go "whoops, our bad" without seeing if they're going to backslide?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Basically, why are people willing to trust them so blindly?

See, I don't know who you mean with people. I don't see people who blindly trust them.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Here's my point: third party companies are fundamentally different from corporate WotC. The gaming part of WotC is fundamentally different from the corporate part. Should I "forgive" WotC? I don't know that I have anything to forgive the gaming part of the company for. As for the corporate? I never thought of them as my friends. That's a different world from smaller companies where if you want to engage with them, you really can, if you care and want to.

But this raises a different concern.

Assume for a second that I'm an ethical consumer. There are many different axes to make decisions on. Inclusivity. Whether the work environment is toxic. Behavior of employees and senior members at conventions (!!!).

Or even simple metrics such as - do the pay a decent salary to employees, and a decent rate (per word, per work) to independent contractors? Do they commission and pay artists in the community what they are worth?

It is a small community- but that smallness can both magnify scandals (whether it's the recent OGL thing, or the whole Paizo toxic work environment from a year ago) as well as obfuscate how some companies treat their employees .... because it's just a hobby.

(As an aside, one thing I have always appreciated about EnWorld Publishing and Morrus is that they consistently discuss both the struggles within the industry and commit to paying people market rates for work.)

 

[Parmandur]

So in a strange journey, we ended up mostly in agreement I guess.

The power of dialogue.

 

[Parmandur]

Basically, why are people willing to trust them so blindly?

So, you don't like the recent 5E design moves. Different strokes for different folks, groovy.

It isnthsg I trust WotC, because I don't: I enjoy the books that they put out. I suppose you could argue that I trust Jeremy Crawford or Chris Perkins: if the 5E design team resigned en masses and denounced OneD&D, that would concern me way more than any business dealings: because the OGL controversy has nothing to do with the products.

 

[Faolyn]

See, I don't know who you mean with people. I don't see people who blindly trust them.

Um, all the people who seem to be shocked and even dismayed that I don't think it's time to forgive WotC and get back onboard with them. You know, half the people in this thread who are willing to buy the books that are coming out this year. The people who are saying that we should be rewarding them for not actually destroying the OGL and VTTs because gosh, wasn't it nice for them to give us extra with the CC license when we still have no way of knowing how useful that will be when One comes out next year.

Those people.