It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[Irlo]

Can you tell us what you meant by "getting back on board with WotC" in the OP? I asked about that a couple times a while back.

I too have been waiting for the answer to that question.

 

[ECMO3]

To extend the use of the gun analogy, the takeaway can be (as I see it) thought of like so:

If someone points a gun at you, pulls the trigger only for it to jam, tries to clear the jam but can't, and finally gives up and gives you $50 to make up for it before walking away, do you say "Awesome! I'm $50 richer than I was an hour ago!" or do you say "That guy just tried to shoot me! And he thinks $50 will make up for it?!"

Pulling the trigger and having it jam is not the same as pointing a gun at you and claiming that he will shoot you and then deciding not to. What WOTC did is the latter. Pulling the trigger and having it jam would be if they actually revoked the license, had it challanged in court and lost that case in court. In that case they would have tried to actually revoke the license and failed as opposed to threatening to revoke the license and succeeding.

I will also point out that in the USA, police point guns at people and threaten to shoot people hundreds of times a day and a relatively large portion of the population condones that behavior and thinks that nothing is wrong with it. While there are people that think that behavior is awful, no one suggests that police pointing a gun at people and threatening them is the same as police shooting people.

 

[ECMO3]

Can you tell us what you meant by "getting back on board with WotC" in the OP? I asked about that a couple times a while back.

Start playing 5E, buying 5E content, supporting 5E creators, including WOTC and other creators.

 

[Alzrius]

Pulling the trigger and having it jam is not the same as pointing a gun at you and claiming that he will shoot you and then deciding not to. What WOTC did is the latter.

I mean, I can see an argument for that particular analogy being more apt (though it leaves out an analogous version of the leaks and community pushback, which is what the "jam" part of it equates to), but I don't think that's necessarily any better.

Pulling the trigger and having it jam would be if they actually revoked the license, had it challanged in court and lost that case in court. In that case they would have tried to actually revoke the license and failed as opposed to threatening to revoke the license and succeeding.

No, I'd say that if they actually revoked the license but lost in court, that would have been them actually shooting you, and you surviving the gunshot wound.

I will also point out that in the USA, police point guns at people and threaten to shoot people hundreds of times a day and a relatively large portion of the population condones that behavior and thinks that nothing is wrong with it.

Which goes to show you why no one is equating WotC with the police in this analogy; there isn't even the flimsiest pretext that their actions were at all warranted.

 

[ECMO3]

"The game" is either an abstract construct or a commercial product, depending on context Either way, it is pretty irrelevant. WotC's actions harmed people, and that is what matters (that is pretty much all that ever matters).

I am speaking in terms of the abstract construct. In terms of WOTC harming "people", I don't know factually that this is true, but it is possibly true. However that in itself is an abstract construct.

Much earlier in this thread I talked about the distinction between the company and the people. When you get down to it the very notion that the company "harmed" people is itself an abstract construct. The company doesn't not do anything in a literal context it is not a living being. People inside the company do those things.

I will also add that the community reaction to this, and specifically the boycots of WOTC and 5E material probably harmed people as well, specifically the creators making fan content. Switching from 5E to PF2 or swearing off 5E going forward harms people too and will continue to harm people in the future, including creators both inside and outside of WOTC that were never for or part of banning the OGL to begin with.

I have a friend DM who was "harmed" when a player stopped playing in his paid game because he would no longer play 5E to protest against WOTC. Technically that friend was not really harmed by WOTC, or by the RPG community. That friend was harmed by the player who quit. That decision to quit can be blamed on WOTC threatening to revoke OGL 1.0a, but it can equally be blamed on the community members advocating for a 5E boycott. In any case quitting that game hurt my friend a lot more than it hurt WOTC.

That is the sort of thing I would like to see stopped.

 

[mamba]

Pulling the trigger and having it jam is not the same as pointing a gun at you and claiming that he will shoot you and then deciding not to. What WOTC did is the latter.

No, they sent the new contracts, asking for them to be signed. That is pulling the trigger.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

To extend the use of the gun analogy, ….

How about … not?

The continued use of certain analogies (murder, arson, guns) for a commercial licensing dispute is distasteful.

Given the daily issues we are having with actual gun violence in America, and the people it affects, I think I’m okay saying that comparing commercial contractual issues to gun violence is… well, if you are wondering why there is push back on the rhetoric used, I hope you understand why.

 

[Alzrius]

How about … not?

The continued use of certain analogies (murder, arson, guns) for a commercial licensing dispute is distasteful.

Well, if you have a better one, I'd like to hear it.

 

[Incenjucar]

I strongly recommend just not using analogies, period. The events that occurred are not terribly complex, we don't need an analogy to understand "a company wanted to do something that the community would hate, the community found out about it before they did it, the community scared the company into backing off but some concerns and the initial motivation remain".

 

[Micah Sweet]

Start playing 5E, buying 5E content, supporting 5E creators, including WOTC and other creators.

That to me is pretty weak in regards to WotC. I can play 5e, buy 5e content, and support 5e creators without giving a dime to WotC if I don't want to or don't like what they put out. Why should I get onboard with WotC at all at this point?