D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[Parmandur]

The first thing to came to my mind is a problem that is true for all published adventures but definitely exacerbated at high levels: the designer does not know the composition of the party.

And that is in fact the main issue: high Level characters are larger than life, so the composition at that point transcends mere math crunching, and becomes a matter of what will fit a very specific group. Hence DMs with high level characters liking to tailor their situation by and large.

Even moreso than with other adventures, high level adventures need to be playtested. A lot. With diverse groups.

And the notion of tightly scripted campaigns needs to be replaced at high levels with generalized outlines with NPC goals and the understanding that things will change on the fly as the NPCs collide with the PCs. Instead of trying to script out every beat, just acknowledge that the NPCs (and DM) will have to adapt on the fly.

Perhaps the Vecna drop from last year is a food example of how to approach high Level material: an extremely powerful and highly specific villain with provided fluff to explain what he may be up to, with a general set-up of his lair. Maybe a product full of Big Bads with detailed goals and ambitions, with barely fleshed out encounter areas thst can be dropped in a more DIY setup?

 

[Stormonu]

In my experience (rather limited, I know), high level adventurers are an army unto themselves. Dominion rules and followers came about for that very reason - the PCs go off to do their thing individually, and only join back up together to face the final threat.

However, if the DM doesn’t want to devolve the game into running a bunch of solo adventures, there needs either some way to handle having each party member doing their part in one location while another party member does their part somewhere else. An example would be something akin to Endgame, where the heroes were split up on different tasks to get different stones, only meeting back up together for the final battle. You could do 5-minute vingenettes for each player, but if done poorly you could see players quickly tuning out when it isn’t “their turn”.

This is where followers can come in handy, allowing one player to run the heavy hitter PC, and the rest of the group runs the various followers. You can rotate between the prime PCs, giving everyone a chance to use their prime abilities and show off what sort of big damn hero they’ve become.

 

[MichaelSomething]

DMs can't wrap their heads around what high level means. I'm talking about throwing a dozen liches at a party; throwing a dozen T-Rexes at a party; throwing a dozen liches RIDING a dozen T-Rexes at a party! You need to throw stuff like this at a high level party...

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I find the problem in designing high level adventures is worldbuilding. Where are all these powerful monsters and high level NPCs coming from? Why have we never seen them before? Why have they not shaped the world?

I resolved it by sending the party to other planes and deep into the lower depths of the Underdark. But it still felt off. I'm not particularly happy with those adventures. I think the best stuff I've written is low level.

 

[delericho]

As far as I can see there are two big problems. The first is the sheer range of powers available to high level characters, not just in what those characters can achieve but also in the specific set of powers that 5-person party can muster. As mentioned, a party of 4 Barbarians would be wildly different from 4 Clerics at the same level. I don't really have anything to offer by way of a solution here.

The second issue is that characters of high level almost invariably have lengthy and detailed backstories. Writing a modular adventure that will 'fit' those backstories (and so be of interest to that group) will be extremely hard, especially with the tight page constraints of published adventures.

The latter issue can be ameliorated in two ways that I can see immediately:

The simple solution is to not write modular high level adventures. Instead, make your published high level adventures the capstone on an adventure path. That way, the PCs' backstories are known to the adventure writer, and the whole thing 'fits' by design.

The other option is to provide less detail of the why of the adventure, and instead provide the DM with just some adventure seeds and then the mechanical bits - the adventure location(s), the monster stats, and so forth.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The second issue is that characters of high level almost invariably have lengthy and detailed backstories.

And you would expect the same to apply to their high level foes.

 

[delericho]

And you would expect the same to apply to their high level foes.

Sure, but that's less of an issue. The players know their characters' backstories, since they were there to see them. When they first meet Thanos they don't know everything about him. Even if they've heard the name, they've probably only heard the highlights.

The key for published adventures, at least at high levels, should be to give the DM enough to make the adventure their own, rather than try to give them everything. Because some adaptation will be necessary, and so the more the adventure tries to detail every little thing the more the DM will have to change - the more the adventure is actively getting in the DM's way.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

When they first meet Thanos they don't know everything about him. Even if they've heard the name, they've probably only heard the highlights.

Thanos has been going around the galaxy committing genocide for a considerable time before he first shows up in person. Anyone who hasn't been isolated on an insignificant backwater planet would know about him.

The equivalent would be having your level 20 villain a known quantity when the party where level 1. That would require a degree of forward planning and railroading I would not be happy with.

 

[delericho]

Thanos has been going around the galaxy committing genocide for a considerable time before he first shows up in person. Anyone who hasn't been isolated on an insignificant backwater planet would know about him.

Which applied to both the Avengers and the audience, so it worked fine.

(Though it is worth noting that Thor wasn't isolated in the manner you describe and there will still no evidence that he had heard of him.)

The equivalent would be having your level 20 villain a known quantity when the party where level 1. That would require a degree of forward planning and railroading I would not be happy with.

Not necessarily. Most settings will have multiple known threats, with the individual campaign eventually leading to one or more of these.

 

[Minigiant]

Perhaps the Vecna drop from last year is a food example of how to approach high Level material: an extremely powerful and highly specific villain with provided fluff to explain what he may be up to, with a general set-up of his lair. Maybe a product full of Big Bads with detailed goals and ambitions, with barely fleshed out encounter areas thst can be dropped in a more DIY setup?

I think ultimately that would be the best way to do a high level adventure.

Create a MacGuffin or 3. Create a reason why they are not snatched up already.

Then list the 4-10 Big Bads and Big Goods, their henchmen, their lairs, their reasons for why they want the MacGuffins, and their relationships to the other Big Bads

1. The Ancient Dragon
2. The Ancient Dragon#2
3. The Archmage
4. The Archmage #2
5. The Church of Good
6. The Church of Evil
7. The Demigod of Strength
8. The Demon Cult
9. The Devil Cult
10. The King of Thieves
11. The Lich
12. The Order of Blood Knights
13. The Warlord