It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[nevin]

Forgive yes.

Trust no. that will probably never be as strong as it was before this.

 

[mamba]

No, this still says that they can read my motivation.

no it doesn’t, it assumes you know your motivation, so you know when they lost a sale vs when they never had it. WotC cannot tell the difference.

Are you implying only things I am aware of can hurt me?

The only way they can actually lose a sale is if I buy it and either cancel the sale before I get the product, or buy and then return the product. Any time before that, they didn't have my sale in the first place.

that sounds like a technicality to me, if I decided to buy something and now do not, then they lost a sale, whether I had ordered it already or not.

If you hadn’t decided yet but are now boycotting WotC, they lost potential sales.

 

[Incenjucar]

Every book you do not buy from WotC could instead be a book you buy from a 3P developer. 3P are not harmed by people boycotting WotC books, they're harmed if people don't buy 3P books.

 

[Burt Baccara]

Not yet.

1. We need to see the community standards thing they are working on.
2. We need 1.0b with the word "irrevocable" and no additional language redefining the word. This is to enshrine the 20+ years of OGC placed in the commons.
   
   Or
   3.0, 3.5 and modern d20 SDRs placed in CC, with no edits from the existing (based on a quick search for beholder and mind flayer, it does not appear to need any edits as they are only mentioned in passing in 3.0 SRD).

 

[ECMO3]

See, here's where you're talking about magic again. The reason I don't buy a book is immaterial to WotC or to the 3pp.

I am the one who started this thread the reason you did not buy a book is what makes it relevant to this thread I made. It is the ONLY thing that matters on my thread. Go start your own thread if you want to talk about what you would not have bought anyway.

A WOTC product you were not going to buy before the OGL controversy has no bearing on this discussion. It is as irrelevant as whether or not you were going to buy the 1E AD&D DMG 40 years ago.

I didn't want to buy Dragonlance, I won't buy Planescape; in both cases, WotC gets no money from me, and in both cases, there was a smaller market for the books.

Yes and your boycott of Planescape to punish WOTC hurts 3p creators. It just does and there is nothing "magic" about it.

You haven't yet shown how there's any sort of actual correlation between my motivation for not buying a book and any harm brought to 3pp creators, beyond "because I say so."

If you did not have the motivation to punish WOTC you would have bough Planescape and this would have helped 3pp creators. Understand now?

Well, I didn't buy it since then, of course; I bought it when it came out. But this still completely fails to follow. I didn't buy a single 3pp Ravenloft material connected to it. I have never bought any 3pp material for Ravenloft. Therefore, I have not supported any 3pp. So have I been harmful to 3pp creators?

Maybe you were but it is not relevant to THIS THREAD.

Stay on topic pleas,stop bringing up hypotheticals unrelated to the actual discussion.

I have to ask: do you actually think that all or most people who buy WotC books also buy 3pp material for it?

I think well over 90% of people who play D&D 5E contribute to 3p creators. I do not think most people who play 5E buy 3p published written content, but that represents a very small part of the 3p market.

But yes most people watch videos, play games at hobby stores, hire DMs, buy dice, buy tile sets, buy character art or maps or miniatures and most of those things come from 3rd party creators.

Not at all. Because you still seem to think my motivation actually matters here.

It is all that matters for this thread.

And you know what? Those 3pp that are so "harmed" by me can maybe start thinking about producing material for other systems, or producing original 5e-compatible material instead of tie-ins.

Sure and maybe they could have done that if WOTC deauthorized OGL 1.0a too, that hardly means it doesn't hurt them. It would have been bad for WOTC to harm the community and it will be equally bad for the community to harm itself that way.

 

[ECMO3]

Every book you do not buy from WotC could instead be a book you buy from a 3P developer. 3P are not harmed by people boycotting WotC books, they're harmed if people don't buy 3P books.

Most of the 3p creators are not writing books to start with, they are doing other things commercially and they are supported by a market primarily driven by 5E.

 

[Incenjucar]

Most of the 3p creators are not writing books to start with, they are doing other things commercially and they are supported by a market primarily driven by 5E.

Okay. Instead of buying a WotC book buy a 3P sewing kit. The specific item doesn't matter.

 

[Faolyn]

I am the one who started this thread the reason you did not buy a book is what makes it relevant to this thread I made. It is the ONLY thing that matters on my thread. Go start your own thread if you want to talk about what you would not have bought anyway.

A WOTC product you were not going to buy before the OGL controversy has no bearing on this discussion. It is as irrelevant as whether or not you were going to buy the 1E AD&D DMG 40 years ago.

WotC didn't produce the AD&D DMG 40 years ago. They did produce VGR a very short time ago. It's not irrelevant at all.

Yes and your boycott of Planescape to punish WOTC hurts 3p creators. It just does and there is nothing "magic" about it.

If you think this is about punishment, then you clearly have no idea.

I have limited funds. I choose to give them to people who did not try to harm creators like me. Because, in case you've forgotten, I am a 3pp creator.

You may claim you are supporting 3pp creators by buying non-3pp material, but have no problem with the fact that, if WotC had been allowed to continue unchecked, they would have been the one doing the harm to me and to many other people on this forum.

If you did not have the motivation to punish WOTC you would have bough Planescape and this would have helped 3pp creators. Understand now?

Maybe, maybe not. Spelljammer was terrible. I would have waited to see reviews and then thought long and hard about if what was presented in the Planescape book was worth it. I had wanted to buy Strixhaven because it seemed neat, but the book was half adventure which is a waste of space, since I hate spending pages on something that IMO should be in it's own book, so I didn't.

And even if I had bought Planescape, I wouldn't have bought any 3pp material made for it, which means that those creators would not have been helped because trickle-down economics does not actually work. If you actually want to support 3pp creators, buy non-WotC-related 3pp material. I have Level Up and Humblewood and the Ancestries & Culture series and many other 3pp products. That's how you support 3pp people. Not by buying something from the huge corporation and hoping that maybe the little people get some of the money.

Maybe you were but it is not relevant to THIS THREAD.

Stay on topic pleas,stop bringing up hypotheticals unrelated to the actual discussion.

The thread is that we should forgive WotC and "get back onboard" with them, which presumably means giving them money.

You are trying to guilt me into doing so my trying to claim that I'm hurting non-WotC creators by not buying WotC materials and have not actually proven that's the case.

So, no.

The only hypothetical here is why I should actually give them my money.

I think well over 90% of people who play D&D 5E contribute to 3p creators. I do not think most people who play 5E buy 3p published written content, but that represents a very small part of the 3p market.

But yes most people watch videos, play games at hobby stores, hire DMs, buy dice, buy tile sets, buy character art or maps or miniatures and most of those things come from 3rd party creators.

Sources, please.

And more to the point--I'm doing (most) of those, but with non-WotC games. So why is what I'm doing bad or harmful and what you're doing good or helpful?

Watching videos, playing games at hobby stores, hiring DMs, buying tile sets--all of those things you mentioned can also be done for every other game out there.

It is all that matters for this thread.


Sure and maybe they could have done that if WOTC deauthorized OGL 1.0a too, that hardly means it doesn't hurt them. It would have been bad for WOTC to harm the community and it will be equally bad for the community to harm itself that way.

Yes, it would have been bad for WotC to have hurt me and my 3pp book, which is what they were planning on doing.

And again, you seem to think "the community" consists entirely of D&D, completely ignoring the thousands of other games out there. And since none of them are as "big" as D&D is, it's even more important for the actual community to support them. Which is what I have done by buying a multitude of books for SWADE, Root, Monster of the Week, Fate, Cypher System, Star Trek Adventures, Spire, Troika!, GURPS, Mork Borg, and many, many more, including literally hundreds of indie games on Itch.io.

If you really want to help creators, buy something other than the big-brand game.

 

[Velderan]

Okay. Instead of buying a WotC book buy a 3P sewing kit. The specific item doesn't matter.

Exactly, if you want to support 3pp, support 3pp. At this point I have little sympathy for a 3pp designer who continues to rely directly on WotC's decisions for their continued existence. The people running WotC have clearly shown that isn't a factor in their decision making process.

If you like 5e and don't want to "get back onboard" with WotC, buy Level Up or participate in the Black Flag playtest. That way you're actually supporting 3pp designers and helping ensure there's a market for other 3pp that make 5e stuff since it's all compatible.

 

[Aldarc]

But yes most people watch videos, play games at hobby stores, hire DMs, buy dice, buy tile sets, buy character art or maps or miniatures and most of those things come from 3rd party creators.

People can do these things without giving WotC their money. People can support 3pp directly and that does more good for 3pp than giving WotC money that you somehow think will magically trickle down to them. And it will certainly do more good than you emotionally manipulating people in this thread for not supporting 3pp if they don't support WotC.