D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[overgeeked]

Sure, but some people won't, and I don't think Wizards wants to get stories about people coming to a game and finding people interacting in the setting because "Well, it's not evil in the setting!" or something like that.

"X shouldn't exist because someone might use it in ways we don't like."

Apply that logic to a non-game topic. Computers. Cars. Freedom of speech. Free will.

It's a bad position to take.

Similarly I think when you have such an outrageous evil being committed, many players are going to feel like the entire game is going to be about eliminating that institutional system and will have problems interacting with other things while that still exists.

Sure. But so what? So their game focuses on eliminating that evil. Good. If some players don't want to do that, cool. Don't center that as part of your campaign or don't engage with this setting. Not everything has to be for every gamer. That's not possible.

I think the funniest one was someone getting angry that they were talking about "punching Nazis".

And that ties into it, I think. You can't punch Nazis in a game without there being Nazis in the game to punch. But having a Nazi-punching game isn't in any way promoting Nazis. It's literally the opposite. Here's a game where this evil thing is the enemy, go fight it. How is that bad?

 

[Justice and Rule]

"X shouldn't exist because someone might use it in ways we don't like."

Apply that logic to a non-game topic. Computers. Cars. Freedom of speech. Free will.

It's a nonsensical and dangerous position to take.

Products and settings for mass consumption often have different standards than what we produce for our tables, largely because one is a controlled setting and one is an uncontrolled market. That's just the way of things. The other half of that is how much you want people to interact with a campaign feature: if it's just there as backdrop, is it completely necessary or just gratuitous?

I suppose the better question here is: what can chattel slavery do that serfdom can't, and why is that specifically important to the setting and game itself?

Sure. But so what? So their game focuses on eliminating that evil. Good. If some players don't want to do that, cool. Don't center that as part of your campaign or don't engage with this setting. Not everything has to be for every gamer. That's not possible.

Yes, but when it's an ubiquitous part of the setting, it's much harder to ignore. I think that's what people are talking about in this regard. Or am I wrong as to how much slavery is in Dark Sun?

And that ties into it, I think. You can't punch Nazis in a game without there being Nazis in the game to punch. But having a Nazi-punching game isn't in any way promoting Nazis. It's literally the opposite. Here's a game where this evil thing is the enemy, go fight it. How is that bad?

Sure, but that game is all about punching Nazis. Not every Dark Sun game is going to be about freeing slaves. No one needs to right that wrong, they can simply just look away and go about their business.

 

[embee]

Just playing devil's advocate:

In this sensationalized news environment, "Hasbro Makes A Game Of Slavery" is probably not something the higher-ups want to hear about.

 

[tetrasodium]

A lot of people seem focused on slavery in darksun, but it also used ceramic coins akin to scrip & the brutal treatment of labor was not unlike what some of the nightmare company towns where workers were free to leave & die attempting to find their way to the nearest town if they didn't like it.

Evil as in the setting itself is Evil-based, when looked at by today's standards. The players are free to decide how they feel about it at their own tables.

Not necessarily "mostly everyone"; but those in positions of socio-economic power probably are, even if unintentionally. The downtrodden - the poor, the slaves, etc. - would more likely cover the whole gamut and average out to neutral; and there's lots more of them than there are people in power.

And of course this raises the bigger question around whether a faux-historical (or even a fully invented) setting should be presented warts and all as being a nasty place replete with nasty and maybe discomforting elements, or have a coat of modern-sensibilities paint applied over it.

Put me mostly in the warts-and-all camp.

It may have sometimes been presented as a not quite so clear cut matter in early Thay but I think that the powers that be in darksun were unquestionably evil by the standards of the day at the time when darksun was released as a setting that presented them as badguys in 1991.

edot: Heck wotc could probably even get one of the Appalachian industrial revolution mining camp treatment museums to proactively involve themselves in wotc's corner as consultants with it just by presenting an adventure set in an athas mining camp or something.

 

[Emoshin]

I suppose the better question here is: what can chattel slavery do that serfdom can't, and why is that specifically important to the setting and game itself?

Hypothetically, between real-life caste systems, forced labor and other forms of discrimination/inequality, I am not entirely sure that serfdom is going to be future-proof for WoTC.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Hypothetically, between real-life caste systems, forced labor and other forms of discrimination/inequality, I am not entirely sure that serfdom is going to be future-proof for WoTC.

I dunno, I think it'll be a bit more durable if only because European serfdom hasn't carried into more modern times like most of those institutions have (with some exceptions, like Russia).

 

[Vaalingrade]

Evil as in the setting itself is Evil-based, when looked at by today's standards. The players are free to decide how they feel about it at their own tables.

If it even became a question of 'how people feel about' slavery at a table I'm at, I'm leaping to safety through the nearest window.

 

[Scribe]

There is a character in a game I am playing, who was sold into slavery. This character goes on to betray the main character several times, and when (if) caught, the topic of their slavery, and how the law abiding did nothing about it, is brought to light.

There is a lot of darker stuff going on in the game, and a lot of light stuff (my character is a paragon of virtue, which sometimes means laws are broken) but if that darker content is all obliterated because its just not acceptable anymore and someone may encounter it, then entire arcs in the game I am playing would be removed, and it would be a (vastly) lesser product because of it.

This is not to downplay the serious historical, and present day! issues of slavery, trafficking, trauma, abuse, mental illness, and so on, but if we refuse to have these topics be at all engaged with in our media, in our storytelling, something is lost there.

Which is all a moot point, because as far as Wizards is concerned, these topics are not to be discussed at all, because it will hurt the bottom line, and we simply cannot have that.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I voted yes in the poll because the poll asks a question of me but if I was a WoTC product manager I would have to ask the question should we tackle material that could if badly handled hurt the brand reputation and would the money it makes be worth that cost as to sticking to more acceptable material.
I do not believe that there is a upside for WoTC to sell stuff with "problematic content". I doubt it would lead to more profit to make the reputational risks worth it.

 

[Emoshin]

I dunno, I think it'll be a bit more durable if only because European serfdom hasn't carried into more modern times like most of those institutions have (with some exceptions, like Russia).

WoTC seems mostly concerned about problematic societal norms, but not about individuals being evil.

I don't remember how Dark Sun worked, but the most future-proof reboot I can think of is to reboot slavery as a pact/bond with the dragon kings.

So basically, everyone has a warlock-like pact with the dragon kings, except the lowest class get nothing good in return and only bad things from being bonded to their dragon king overlord.