D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Sacrosanct]

Did TSR do more than just change the names of the devils and demons as a response to the panicked detractors? I mostly played 1e and started using 2e in about ‘94 but I only used the PHB, so I’m not up on all the design changes.

Got rid of assassins and half orcs as well. Really placed the focus on "PCs shouldn't be evil", at least in presentation.

 

[Faolyn]

I dont think it has even one word to do with Psionics being something they have 'no idea' how to do.

No idea how to do to make the majority of people happy. They've tried three times and no dice.

Its insanely clear, unless (and I wouldnt blame you!) we want to just assume all words out of Wizards are lies.

I don't think it's a lie, but I don't think it's the entirety of the truth.

 

[Umbran]

Please argue in good faith.

Mod Note:
Maybe throwing such judgements around publicly will not work out well for you. If I were to read through your collected posts in this thread, would I find good faith argument, or would I find rather insulting assertions of others' intentions that look designed to be manipulative?

You are free to disengage at any time, you know.

 

[Imaro]

How many movies and tv shows have actors roleplaying slavers and slaves? How many movies and tv shows have actors roleplaying abusers and the abused? How many movies and tv shows have actors roleplaying torturers and the tortured? A whole hell of a lot of them.

We don't go around demanding that they stop making these movies and tv shows. Hollywood doesn't have problems remaking old movies that have these things in them. Why is that? It's because those movies and tv shows have actors roleplaying the other side as well. They have the heroes trying to free the slaves. They have the heroes trying to bring the abusers and torturers to justice. And because they show that those things are awful and should be opposed, we are okay with it.

Honestly in the black community there are a growing number of us that are fed up with the media's seeming obsession with black trauma and misery as entertainment and we don't support movies and shows about slavery even if it's portrayed as evil and there are heroes trying to stop it.

 

[Imaro]

5e PHB page 24: "Drow grow up believing that surface-dwelling races are inferior, worthless except as slaves."

5e PHB page 40: "Other scars, though, mark an ore or half-ore as a former slave or a disgraced exile."

5e PHB page 94: "When their target-a notorious slaver-passes the alleyway, the accomplice cries out, the slaver comes to investigate, and the assassin's blade cuts his throat before he can make a sound."

5e DMG Page 19: "The cities of High port and Suderham in the Greyhawk campaign setting are satrapies controlled by agents of a vicious gang of marauders known as the Slave Lords."

5e DMG page 54: "The largest cavern beneath the mountains, called the Great Dismal Delve or the Sevenfold Mazework, is home to the capital city of the dao, the City of Jewels. The dao take great pride in their wealth and send teams of slaves across the plane in search of new veins of ore and gemstones to exploit."

5e DMG page 56: "The heart of the city is the towering Charcoal Palace, where the tyrannical sultan of the efreet reigns supreme, surrounded by efreet nobles and a host of slaves, guardians, and sycophants."

5e DMG page 100: "Details bring a dungeon setting's personality to life. Great bearded faces might be carved on the doors of a dwarven stronghold and might be defaced by the gnolls who live there now. Spiderweb decorations, torture chambers, and slave pens might be common features in a vault built by drow, telling something about that location and its occupants."

5e DMG page 101: "And all the while, a hidden cell of draw scouts watches and plots to slay the mind flayers, then enslave whatever creatures are left."

DMG page 113: "18 Hidden slavers' den"

DMG page 225: "Each orb contains the essence of an evil dragon, a presence that resents any attempt to coax magic from it. Those lacking in force of personality might find themselves enslaved to an orb."

5e Acquisitions Inc pages 123: "Friedson is a North lander wh o has pushed his crew to more and more dangerous and despicable deeds in recent months. He has even talked about taking up full-on piracy and slave trading to earn extra coin, and the (mostly) good souls aboard the Tortured Tortle are looking for a new way to make a living."

5e Eberron-Rising From the Last War page 24: "When humans first came to Khorvaire, they enslaved many goblins and built their cities on the foundations of Dhakaani ruins. Galifar ended the practice of slavery, and these goblins are now citizens of the Five Nations."

5e Eberron-Rising From the Last War page 112: "Most of the Cyran population fled the goblin uprising, and those who remained were killed or enslaved." and "Lhesh Haruuc has abolished slavery in Rhukaan Draal, but some of clan lords continue this practice."

5e Eberron-Rising From the Last War page 139: "This story bears at least some truth. The elves were once slaves of the ancient giants, and the dragons dideradicate the civilizations of Xen'drik."

5e Eberron-Rising From the Last War page 198: "The kobold lord Kethelrax has laid claim to Shaarat Kol in the south of Droaam and leads host of kobolds and goblins-creatures that have been traditionally enslaved and oppressed by the larger and more powerful inhabitants of the region."

5e Ravnica page 221: "These creations become thrulls, obedient slaves that serve in a variety of menial roles: laborers, messengers, beasts of burden, and even fashion accessories for the elite."

I can go on and on, including Tasha's and Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse. 5e has slavery everywhere, including several instances of ongoing legalized slavery. Dark Sun won't even stand out really.

None of these seem comparable to an entire campaign setting where slavery is the currently accepted status quo... is there an example of that from Wotc outside of Dark Sun?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Honestly in the black community there are a growing number of us that are fed up with the media's seeming obsession with black trauma and misery as entertainment and we don't support movies and shows about slavery even if it's portrayed as evil and there are heroes trying to stop it.

Yeah, the whole 'being non-white, cis, hetero sucks at all times and these people only have worth in terms of showing their misery' train needs to die.

Every once in a while, I get a review on a book where someone is mad because my characters are minorities and not suffering and I happily dunk those in the garbage beside the ones that are enraged that there's a woman who can swing a big sword.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Thank you to Maxperson for comprehensive proof the WotC already uses slavery way, way waaaaay too much already and should stop and get some therapy.

 

[Mercurius]

Thank you to Maxperson for comprehensive proof the WotC already uses slavery way, way waaaaay too much already and should stop and get some therapy.

Is it your sense that WotC uses slavery more than its historical presence in real world premodern societies?

 

[Imaro]

Is it your sense that WotC uses slavery more than its historical presence in real world premodern societies?

I'd be more interested in what percentage of modern fantasy literature, adult and young adult, features slavery as a major setting element...

 

[Mercurius]

I'd be more interested in what percentage of modern fantasy literature, adult and young adult, features slavery as a major setting element...

Good question and I have no idea. I don't think slavery itself has played an especially prominent role in fantasy literature, historically speaking. But it may have increased in recent years, perhaps due to the rise of a few elements: "grimdark" fantasy, dystopian teen lit, and socio-cultural commentary (especially, as you say above, the over-usage of the "the non-white experience usually sucks" trope).

In D&D it may go back to the Slavelords series. Slavery as an RPG trope was probably around before then, but that's one of the classic early "adventure paths" of AD&D that was rather influential. And of course the grimness of the Underdark and the drow as slavers.

Another factor: fiction tends to augment certain dramatic elements in a way that is not commensurate with reality. And of course as much as we think we might know about the Middle Ages or Ancient World, a lot is filled in with conjecture. In an RPG context, it makes a certain amount of sense that "bad elements" are brought more to the fore, especially in a darker setting like Dark Sun.