D&D General Asian D&D

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't see how yellowface is relevant in a conversation about Kara-Tur. I don't really care whether it's punching down or not, it's just a weird thing to bring up within the context of RPGs.

...because it shows that, even within the lifetimes of current teenagers, major Western media and entertainment corporations have had deeply s#!tty, racist caricatures in their multi-million-dollar products. It shows that exploitation of Asian culture, concepts, and even identity is alive and well in the present day, with actual products. It shows that comedy at the expense of a local minority, even if that ethnic group is strong on the world stage, remains a serious issue that needs to be addressed thoughtfully.

Re-making Kara-Tur, or indeed remaking any of several products (Al-Qadim, Maztica, whatever you like) requires a consideration for how it will affect not just the whole of humanity in a massive abstract, but what it will mean for everyday, ordinary Americans (or Brits, or whomever else; Americans are only a tiny bit more relevant because WotC and Hasbro are companies here, and will publish here first.) The fact that someone as big and influential as Universal Pictures could get things that wrong that recently shows we haven't left behind these crappy, Orientalist, exoticized, and (often) infantilized portrayals anywhere near as much as we would like.

Because I'm pretty sure that if Universal had hired a sensitivity editor and actually heeded their advice, Mr. Schneider would not have done a yellowface performance any more than a white actor today would be willing to do a blackface performance. And, likewise, if WotC hires, and listens to, a sensitivity editor for Kara-Tur, I'm pretty sure they could rework it and receive recognition for doing so. Whether the resulting product would be financially successful is rather distinct, and I've already weighed in on the fact that yes, I do think that a portion of the old fans will get upset with any changes, even if those changes come exclusively from the very best of reasons.

 

[Kalmi]

Just in terms of appealing to the Japanese market, I think the idea that an Asian-themed product would be better is a bit of a misunderstanding. Sword World is very western fantasy (filtered through Japanese tastes), CoC is not especially designed for "Asian" settings, D&D is still popular without any explicit Asian settings. Western fantasy is extremely popular, as seen in Final Fantasy, numerous MMOs, light novels, etc. It's not that Asian fantasy can't be popular (hello Genshin Impact), but it shouldn't be assumed this is any easier a path to success than western fantasy.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I defend the idea of a D&D isekai&xuanhuan, like a bridge between different cultures.

I don't fear so much the possible predjudices by the Western audience, but by the Asians themself against their neighbours, or even against compatriots from other region, or by people living in the big cities against the ones from the country villages. Other of the my fears is the Chinese censorship. Even Pepa Pig can be banned because ridiculous reasons.

There are a good reason because Asians should wellcome a D&D jianghu... because this can be used to introduce their own works in the Western market. Manga(J)+manghua(Ch)+manghwa(K) publishers, and Asian videogame studios, could create their own settings and these to be licenced by WotC.

After the Sunderings there are good reasons to explain the possible retcon within Kara-Tur, Zakhara and Maztica.

There is a good marketing reason to delay a D&D jianghu... if WotC wants to update the martial adept classes (warblade, crusader and swordsage), the setting should be adapted to allow "cultivators". We could say the same about the psionic mystic and the (incarnum soulmelders) totemist shaman and incarnates (soulborn as paladin subclass).

* I have suggested several times a little retcon of the korokoburu linked with the etimology of their name. I say they wear traditional hats by fuki leaves because these are signs of good luck in their local culture.

The shens have to show some interesting trait, they can't be only "elven's far cousins". The gift to talk with animals is interesting for storytelling effects, but not enough practical in the battlefield.

Hengeyokai as PC specie could be broken if for example the alternate animal shape can fly. I imagine they have ordinary ears like the rest of humanoids, and the ears on the top of the heard are only cosmetic because if they weren't then the ear canals should be diagonal.

I love the idea of the dokkaebi as a mixture of fey(touched) and living construct. Their origin is ordinary objects what were tainted by human blood, and later they "awakened" in a way like the tsukumogami.

* You should buy Kaidan setting, at least to speculate and be sold to collectors in the future.

 

[Iosue]

Just in terms of appealing to the Japanese market, I think the idea that an Asian-themed product would be better is a bit of a misunderstanding. Sword World is very western fantasy (filtered through Japanese tastes), CoC is not especially designed for "Asian" settings, D&D is still popular without any explicit Asian settings. Western fantasy is extremely popular, as seen in Final Fantasy, numerous MMOs, light novels, etc. It's not that Asian fantasy can't be popular (hello Genshin Impact), but it shouldn't be assumed this is any easier a path to success than western fantasy.

Yup. In the context of martial arts, I’ve said that the most Japanese dojo in the West is not as Japanese as the most westernized gym in Japan, and I think the same applies here. A D&D game by Japanese players is going to be more attuned to Japanese culture and tastes than the most historically and culturally accurate L5R game ever played in the west.

Case in point, the first “replay” I ever read was for 4e, and it prominently featured a maid character.

 

[Blue Orange]

5e is hugely popular in Japan. Let me refer to this thread.

Updating it for the recently released 2022 numbers, it shows

1. D&D (all editions) 286 games
2. Shadowrun (all editions) 120 games
3. Sword World (all editions) 116 games
4. Pathfinder 108 games (I believe this is 1st Ed., as there is no translation of 2nd Ed.)
5. Call of Cthulhu 105 games

Once an official localization of 5e was produced in 2017, it immediately became one of the most commonly played games, second only to the Cthulhu fad. And now that the fad has subsided, it's on top again. While the above groups all editions of D&D together, as of 2020, when editions were listed separately, 5e was 100s of games ahead of the next closest edition, 4e.

Kudos for actually providing some data. OK, so the Japanese like D&D!

I think everyone else has hit the major points-an Asian D&D setting would irritate Asian-Americans, not do much for Asians in Asia (the Japanese can do samurai better than we can for obvious reasons), and isn't necessary anyway.

 

[Oofta]

We're starting to see that, with Islands of Sina Una, A Thousand Thousand Islands and other settings by folks from outside the US, talking about their own myths and legends. (And even from a European standpoint, we're getting a lot of RPG material out of Italy and some from France, each of which has its own feel.)

More is definitely better, though. I look forward to the day we can get Australian-flavored and Polynesian-flavored settings from the folks who know those parts of the world best.

Those look awesome, thanks!

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Today the Disney comedy "our dinosaur is missing" wouldn't be wellcome for the modern standars, but if the main characters are Chinese-descendents, I guess. I didn't become sinophobic by their fault. I learnt to respect Chinese culture thanks teleserie "Kung Fu" (but the sequel in the modern days was one of the best examples of "jumping the shark").

Some times in the past I suggest the idea of a game-live show by Asian players, using VTT and a virtual avatars.

I suspect we will see some troubles about China, and then jianghu/wuxia/xuanhuan/xianxia will be not wellcome in the Western market, but horror stories where the heroes fight against jiang-shi or like this.

WotC would need contact with Asian players and publishers, and let's remember these have got their own "sensibilities", they follow other rules about political correction.

China is a great market but "dangerous" in the sense the bigwigs don't like the "soft power" coming from abroad. Any solution? A Chinese publisher creating from zero a new IP to be sold to WotC. Here the risk is you have to choose between Taiwan or China, you can't get along with both simultaneously.

China is not really homogeneus. When a movie is released, this has to be dubbed to different regional languanges. Mandarin languange is official, but it is not the first one for the most of Chinese citizens.

Now we only need "crunch" about PC species and monsters. Here WotC could talk with Asian creators from different places.

Should be sohei a paladin subclass? Should be the crusader, the (ki?) martial adept a paladin subclass? should the warblade to be a fighter subclass? The ki martial adepts in a D&D jianghu could be like the psionic in Dark Sun. The incarnum soulmelder classes also could find their place here.

How would be an artificer isekai? Somebody from a world with high-tech, for example Kamiwaga: Neon Dinasty, becoming an artificer in other world.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Just in terms of appealing to the Japanese market, I think the idea that an Asian-themed product would be better is a bit of a misunderstanding. Sword World is very western fantasy (filtered through Japanese tastes), CoC is not especially designed for "Asian" settings, D&D is still popular without any explicit Asian settings. Western fantasy is extremely popular, as seen in Final Fantasy, numerous MMOs, light novels, etc. It's not that Asian fantasy can't be popular (hello Genshin Impact), but it shouldn't be assumed this is any easier a path to success than western fantasy.

There is a bit of misunderstanding here in the OP I talk about translating 5e/1D&D to Japanese, Chinese, and Korean. Then also updating / creating a fantasy Asian setting. The Asian marketed would be served by the core book translations primarily and less so by the setting guides.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

If the market is small and saturated by other companies with a long history in the community you have to come in with something really strong to get noticed. 5e, on it's own, is not strong enough. That's why there's a Commercial for it, but very low interest in the localizations, comparatively.

So, given that we have some actual numbers now, see below, and D&D and 5e are doing pretty well. Does that change or ideas at all? You seem to have a good handle on the market, even if you were wrong about D&D's popularity, so I would be interested in your thoughts.

5e is hugely popular in Japan. Let me refer to this thread.

Updating it for the recently released 2022 numbers, it shows

1. D&D (all editions) 286 games
2. Shadowrun (all editions) 120 games
3. Sword World (all editions) 116 games
4. Pathfinder 108 games (I believe this is 1st Ed., as there is no translation of 2nd Ed.)
5. Call of Cthulhu 105 games

Once an official localization of 5e was produced in 2017, it immediately became one of the most commonly played games, second only to the Cthulhu fad. And now that the fad has subsided, it's on top again. While the above groups all editions of D&D together, as of 2020, when editions were listed separately, 5e was 100s of games ahead of the next closest edition, 4e.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

To be clear, I don't think the major Asian markets would be where you'd see controversy about cultural references in a Western Product, it would be something they'd be facing primarily in the domestic market here in the U.S.

Take Games Workshop's Cathay for instance, it went from a minor caricature to this recently and will presumably feature heavily in the returning WHF, and is massively popular with Chinese gamers. Even something like The Last Samurai did very well in the Japanese market.