D&D General Asian D&D

[Paul Farquhar]

The problem with Kara-Tur is it's like the American habit of calling all British people "English". Use it for someone who is actually from England, and they won't be offended, but use it to describe someone from Scotland, Wales, Ireland or (possibly) Cornwall and they will be extremely offended.

Of course, since they are British, they will show that they are offended by being extremely polite to you.

 

[Blue Orange]

The problem with Kara-Tur is it's like the American habit of calling all British people "English". Use it for someone who is actually from England, and they won't be offended, but use it to describe someone from Scotland, Wales, Ireland or (possibly) Cornwall and they will be extremely offended.

Of course, since they are British, they will show that they are offended by being extremely polite to you.

Well, maybe the Scots, Welsh, or Cornish will.

I don't know if telling an Irish person they're British (unless possibly in Northern Ireland) would have the same effect...

 

[MGibster]

Re-making Kara-Tur, or indeed remaking any of several products (Al-Qadim, Maztica, whatever you like) requires a consideration for how it will affect not just the whole of humanity in a massive abstract, but what it will mean for everyday, ordinary Americans (or Brits, or whomever else; Americans are only a tiny bit more relevant because WotC and Hasbro are companies here, and will publish here first.)

And we've created an environment where even the largest RPG company would balk at remaking something like Kara-Tur, even if they make an effort to modernize the content, out of fear of backlash. If I were WotC, I sure wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. It might be controversial enough that I have the original available for sale to some people and risking castigation for a new product that might not sell all that well isn't worth the effort. So for all those people lamenting a lack of western inspired fantasy RPG settings, and I'm one of them, you're not going to get what you want from WotC. You're going to have to rely on smaller publishers to scratch that particular itch.

Because I'm pretty sure that if Universal had hired a sensitivity editor and actually heeded their advice, Mr. Schneider would not have done a yellowface performance any more than a white actor today would be willing to do a blackface performance.

Who uses sensitivity readers for comedy? The only thing I can think of that will kill comedy quicker is Schneider himself.

Yup. In the context of martial arts, I’ve said that the most Japanese dojo in the West is not as Japanese as the most westernized gym in Japan, and I think the same applies here. A D&D game by Japanese players is going to be more attuned to Japanese culture and tastes than the most historically and culturally accurate L5R game ever played in the west.

Which I think is perfectly fine. If I were to open a Texas style steakhouse in Japan, I would gear the menu and the experience to Japanese tastes.

 

[kunadam]

I would like to understand what is cultural appropriation and what is being insensitive to someone!
Pseudo medieval settings are caricatures of Europe. They do a miss-mash of countries and cultures. They missrepresent religions, concepts, values, etc. And no-one blinks an eye.

"Orientalism" tends to make infantile, undeveloped caricatures that can be expressed in extremely simple terms, despite covering (at this point) billions of humans who belong to dozens of distinct cultures.

You can take concepts from vastly different times and regions in D&D if they come from western mythology and nobody blinks an eye.

Why is it that we feel that we can bastardize, twist, misinterpret someone else's culture and heritage if those people has a similar skin hue? By claiming that all Europe is just one culture, we do exactly the same mistake as treating all "Asians" as either samurais with different named weapons or monks with different martial art style.

It does seem like there would still be touchy subjects of course. There are very few people who are still polytheistic in the west so I'm probably not going to offend anyone with my depiction of Odin and Thor, but a variation of Shinto or Buddhism? It could be quite easy to step on toes.

But that doesn't mean you can't go wrong. Rick Riordan got a rude surprise when he learned that Modern Hellenism exists, and he (appropriately) apologized to them.

It is never about the number of people you offend, but the fact that you offend. If you use real world names, places and cultures then it is a problem. If they are not real world just "inspired by" then there should be no offense.

Have you heard of "punching down"? Usually, drawing on your own source culture(s) isn't punching down. Partly because...well, you know it at least a little. Norse and Greek and Celtic are known to us, because they're used in our stories today all the time. We know the nuances, or at least know to look for the nuances. We wouldn't depict a Roman Senator calling down Thor's wrath, nor a Celt praying to Hercules for strength, nor a Norseman swearing a vow on the river Styx. Unfortunately, a LOT of works inspired by Asia do basically that, blending thousands of years and millions of square miles into a single Frankensteinian mishmash.

We think we know these European tales. But our knowledge is probably 90% false, and our caricature of Asia might be more accurate. Most supposedly Greek stories in cinema nowadays are utterly wrong. And they are like a Norseman vowing on the river Styx because they are true believers of the god Buddha.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim and Maztica are unlocked in DMGuild because they are FR spin-off. Then WotC only needs to await and see the reaction of the players. Here they aren't risking their own prestige when it is work by 3PPs.

If we want lore about Kara-Tur, we only need to read the fandom wiki of FR.

Now we only need an update of the PC species and creatures. And in D&D-Beyond a section could be created to share homebred settings. Even a contest could be created.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

our caricature of Asia might be more accurate.

There are plenty of things I could respond to in your post, but this part makes me think it probably isn't worth doing so.

I 100%, absolutely, positively, unequivocally promise you that no, the "caricature of Asia" is not more accurate. It is literally not possible for the caricature to be more accurate, because a lot of the caricature is based on outright fabrications and the active, malicious efforts of our forefathers.

The United States passed the "Chinese Exclusion Act" in 1882. It wasn't repealed (or "repealed," given it raised the limit from 0 to 150) until 1943. The case Korematsu v. United States remains case law, never overturned by the Supreme Court, and thus allowing the mass incarceration of people solely because they're Asian. And that's not even touching on the pretty dang awful stuff like yellowface or the "yellow devil" etc., let alone the REALLY awful stuff.

There is no way that the "caricature of Asia" is more accurate.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

There are plenty of things I could respond to in your post, but this part makes me think it probably isn't worth doing so.

I 100%, absolutely, positively, unequivocally promise you that no, the "caricature of Asia" is not more accurate. It is literally not possible for the caricature to be more accurate, because a lot of the caricature is based on outright fabrications and the active, malicious efforts of our forefathers.

The United States passed the "Chinese Exclusion Act" in 1882. It wasn't repealed (or "repealed," given it raised the limit from 0 to 150) until 1943. The case Korematsu v. United States remains case law, never overturned by the Supreme Court, and thus allowing the mass incarceration of people solely because they're Asian. And that's not even touching on the pretty dang awful stuff like yellowface or the "yellow devil" etc., let alone the REALLY awful stuff.

There is no way that the "caricature of Asia" is more accurate.

Well, at least the US didn't go to war with China to force them to not prohibit opium...
Opium Wars - Wikipedia

 

[bedir than]

By claiming that all Europe is just one culture,

No reputable person has done this.

 

[kunadam]

There are plenty of things I could respond to in your post, but this part makes me think it probably isn't worth doing so.

I would have liked if you respond to those parts too.

I 100%, absolutely, positively, unequivocally promise you that no, the "caricature of Asia" is not more accurate. It is literally not possible for the caricature to be more accurate, because a lot of the caricature is based on outright fabrications and the active, malicious efforts of our forefathers.

Each fantasy representation is a caricature. It is based on our knowledge and how much we want to tailor it to our own need. Knowledge of resent Asia can be way more accurate than our knowledge of ancient cultures. If you want to represent Shinto you can talk to people following it, your can read books by Japanese writers, go to Japan and try to experience it. Want to know how a samurai is dressed? There are photographs of them from the 19th c. early 20 c. They might not be the same as 17th c samurais, but there is a continuous, living tradition behind being a samurai.
Nordic religion, Celtic religion, Polish religion or Hungarian religion (list your favorite European culture here) has no or very few written record, their practice was forcibly eradicated by Christians hundreds of years ago. There is no continuous tradition. And now tell me that if I want to have a depiction of an Asian culture (and admit that, like all fantasy, it will be a caricature) it cannot be way, way more accurate than anything I can come up (after finishing a PhD in the said ancient European culture) with regard to old Norse, Greek, Egyptian, Baltic, Slavic, Finno-Ugric, etc. culture.
The key is can, if I invest the time and effort. I never claimed that if I think up a fantasy empire with yellow skinned orks with devil faced masks wielding halberds that will be called sai, then I have a perfect depiction of Laos.

 

[ProfessorDetective]

One of the interesting things about Japanese CoC is that while the Mythos appeals to Japanese sensibilities (I suspect its the tentacles), a lot of scenarios are non-horror and even romantic in nature. The Japanese and Korean players appear to have embraced the power of CoC rules to give slice of life with a weird creepy twist

Seriously, can someone PLEASE license and export as many of the Japanese-only CoC modules as possible? I've been really curious about that side of the game for a long while. Plus, it'd have to be cheaper than writing new books from scratch. Sword World in English would ALSO be interesting.