D&D 5E Ruling Question on Shapechanger & Hold Person

[Swarmkeeper]

If its type is humanoid in its humanoid form and something else in its true form, then its statistics are not the same in each form.

Actually... I think you are right here. Form =/= type. And type is a statistic. Thank you. Vote changed

That said, it is worth noting that this isn't really a wasted spell as the caster, and possibly the whole party, now knows a little bit more about their foe when the DM rules Hold Person an auto-failure in this instance. They can infer that they are either dealing with a creature that is immune to spells or that they are dealing with a non-humanoid shapeshifter. The spell did a job, just not its primary one.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Interesting dialgoues everyone! I find it very noteful that some people have changed their votes--I think that alone signifies this is a point in D&D that should be addressed more.

Yes, I know 5E is all about rulings over rules, yadda yadda yadda, but my preferences is for rules, which DM's can obviously change if they don't like.

 

[Hriston]

Actually... I think you are right here. Form =/= type. And type is a statistic. Thank you. Vote changed

That said, it is worth noting that this isn't really a wasted spell as the caster, and possibly the whole party, now knows a little bit more about their foe when the DM rules Hold Person an auto-failure in this instance. They can infer that they are either dealing with a creature that is immune to spells or that they are dealing with a non-humanoid shapeshifter. The spell did a job, just not its primary one.

Yes, the way I'd run this, the players could infer from the fact I didn't roll a save for the slaad, but merely stated it was unaffected by the spell, that the slaad is something other than what it seems.

 

[J-H]

Its statistics, other than its size, have not changed. It is still an aberration and the spell fails.

 

[Clint_L]

Good debate - I started with one perspective, but changed my mind after reading the responses, and now agree that it should not work. The underlying issue is that WotC has used contradictory text by inserting the word "polymorph" into the description of the Death Slaad's shape change ability, when it is clearly written as distinct from "polymorph" in key ways. I hope they correct this in the updated MM.

 

[Quickleaf]

Interesting dialgoues everyone! I find it very noteful that some people have changed their votes--I think that alone signifies this is a point in D&D that should be addressed more.

Yes, I know 5E is all about rulings over rules, yadda yadda yadda, but my preferences is for rules, which DM's can obviously change if they don't like.

My understanding of the RAW is (A) the hold person would have no effect whatsoever. Depending on the level of interaction the PCs had with this shapechanged death slaad, I might pretend to roll a saving throw behind my screen (or on the VTT) and then say "it failed its save" to preserve the mystery. Or I might outright say "your spell fails to affect it, and you sense its nature is more than mere mortal." Depends on situation.

However... RAI and intended narrative in this case is fuzzy...

Whenever there's ambiguity in the rules (or arguably in the narrative intent here), I try to avoid binary positions and lean into the player's intent with a "no, but..." or a "yes, and..." more nuanced answer that both acknowledges the monster's description & the player's intent.

For example, I'd probably rule something like one of these options...

• "The humanoid begins to slow down, but suddenly gets a gleam in its eye and the flesh sloughs apart like peeling tree bark to reveal the monstrous toady form of a slaad beneath." (hold person fails, BUT reveals its true nature)
• "The humanoid slows down to barely perceptible movement, its eyes and fingers twitching erratically." (the slaad pretends to be paralyzed, instead Readying attack/spell, but the unusual description hints that something is amiss, an Insight vs. its Deception might reveal it is playing possum)
• "The spells fails against the humanoid, but for a moment the humanoid shudders and an insubstantial double image is faintly visible around it. As it staggers forward, shrugging off your magic, a bloody gem topples to the floor behind it." (hold person fails, BUT its control gem is forced out of its body)
• "With an expression of shock bleeding into twisted delight, a warped smile several inches too long is locked on its face as it succumbs to the spell." (hold person succeeds - assuming the death slaad fails save despite Magic Resistance - but I let it use an at-will spells like detect thoughts or fear for free)

 

[Clint_L]

To clarify: my current view is that hold person would not work on a death slaad using its shape changing ability to transform into a humanoid appearance, but would work on a death slaad that had been polymorphed into a humanoid (though at that point, you would have been much better off just polymorphing it into a bug and throwing it in a jar).

Question: Let's assume the latter. Is there a way to kill a polymorphed creature without reducing it to 0 HPs and thus breaking the spell? I was trying to figure out a clever way to do this with the exhaustion mechanic but couldn't come up with anything.

 

[cbwjm]

Rather than reading up on the spells and powers in question, I'm just going to say how it would run in my game.

Wizard casts hold person on the shape changed death slaad, assuming it fails its save, it is held. On the slaad's next turn, it can end the shapechange, revert to its normal form, and break hold person at the same time.

The situation is similar to an elf that wildshaped into a bear and got paralysed by ghouls, once back in the form of an elf, they were freed from the effect.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

To clarify: my current view is that hold person would not work on a death slaad using its shape changing ability to transform into a humanoid appearance, but would work on a death slaad that had been polymorphed into a humanoid (though at that point, you would have been much better off just polymorphing it into a bug and throwing it in a jar).

Indeed, we are talking two different effects. The Slaad's inherent ability is just a sophisticated disguise power, that does not affect it's stats, which obviously includes type. RAW is clear, and supports the narrative interpretation. It does not become human, it just looks human.

Turning something into something else, as the Polymorph spell does, is a completely different sort of ability.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Much to no one's surprise I'm sure... with my particular way of playing my first instinct would be to rule base on narrative. My thought process in the moment would be something along the lines of...

"The Death Slaad is way more powerful than your standard humanoid. It's meant to be caught or tripped up by high-level characters and powerful magics, not new characters with low-powered magic. Is it meant to really fall victim to the same 2nd level spell that kobolds and goblins are?"

The answer in my mind being "No, of course it shouldn't." Thus my ruling would be to select the side of the question that makes the most narrative sense. Death Slaad need to be hit with Hold Monster spells just like every other non-humanoid monster in the game.

It would be like suggesting that a CR 24 Ancient Gold Dragon could suddenly fall victim to a 1st-level Charm Person just because it changed shape into a human. Nope, never going to happen in my game. I'm not going to be handcuffed to game mechanics that just possibly weren't written that precisely to cover every single corner-case in the game. I can appreciate other people wishing the game could be written that vigorously to be able to do so... but it just doesn't bother me that the game is asking me to do it instead. I'd rather it be me than to have a 500-page tome trying to close every loophole in the rules. Not worth it to me.