D&D (2024) They butchered the warlock in the new packet

[mellored]

Overall they've lost more power than they've gained. True, most of that power before was via feats, which is terrible design, but that should have been baked into the bases classes. Not only that, but martials still lack a shared power system. So more martial abilities can't be added beyond subclasses. While casters can constantly get piles of new spells via splatbooks.

Are you sure?

A fighter can topple, shove 10', and move back 15' to be out of melee range. While dealing full damage.

Not included spiked growth or web.

Also, I still expect some of the worst spells to be taken down a few notches.

Look at the DnDNext playtest sorcerer. It actually had unique mechanics and theme which played into its subclasses. Rather than forcing every sorcerer to be wildmagic themed.

I don't know how giving 1 extra Cantrip and 1 extra prepared spell makes everyone wild themed.

You're still going to be using firebolt most of the time, unless they really ramp up the elemental resistance and weaknesses.

 

[Vaalingrade]

isn't that what happened to psionics? isn't that why we don't have a warlord?

So I was wrong in the other thread. It's the warlock they're fixing to off instead of the sorcerer.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I can't even bring myself to be happy about warlock being a half caster (despite me asking for a PHB arcane half caster for 10 years). Because I can see from the overall community reaction to it that it's just going to go back to being a full caster (but spellcasting rather than pact magic because WotC doesn't want to program anything different for their VTT).

And once again, we'll be left with 4 arcane full casters and no arcane half caster in the PHB. Except this time around, the one I actually care about has had its identity turned into 'lolrandom'. So I won't be touching sorcerer again.

I will agree to a degree. An arcane half caster is sorely needed and the blade pact of this version of the warlock with some weapon and or armor spells would work for that great. the problem is I don't want to give up my warlock to get it

 

[Vaalingrade]

I still don't see the appeal of half-casters personally. I've never seen one where there was an equivalent exchange or any effort to make the spells you're getting three levels late worth it.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Overall they've lost more power than they've gained. True, most of that power before was via feats, which is terrible design, but that should have been baked into the bases classes.

I'd need to see the numbers run on this before level 12 other than for Sharpshooters (especially with Crossbow Expert) and vumans with one of the power feats.

For melee fighters the nerfs that I recall boil down to:

• Great Weapon Masters with either Reckless Attack or the Battlemaster's Precision Strike no longer out-power every other build
• Polearm Master + Sentinel fighters no longer get to freeze people as they come in
• Spear + Shield + PAM isn't comfortably the best one handed combination in the game.

Meanwhile I'm not sure which of these combos have actually been nerfed.

Starting with the Polearm Master + Sentinel. The new version is going to have +2 STR over the old one for +1 to hit and damage with every attack. They are going to get just as many attacks. And assuming you have a pike as your polearm you invoke the Push property which can do fun things when you get an OA that also cuts the enemy's speed to zero. You still have an immobilization trap.

For the Great Weapon Fighter we're going to compare a level 8 GWF classic barbarian with a maul and a +2 STR ASI with a modern GWM Barbarian with a maul and the Charger feat. The to hit and damage are the same - but rather than taking a -5 to hit to use their power strike the modern barbarian gets a free +4 damage and regularly get to charge for +d8 damage. Oh, and every attack you make forces a constitution save or your foe goes prone. You don't do quite as much damage but you hit far more reliably and you have a non-damage effect. I remain unconvinced this is a nerf.

Which just leaves the Spear, Shield, and Polearm Master. This time we aren't going to normalise the weapons because the big issue is that the spear master simply outdamages everything else. So we're taking a polearm master with +2 Str vs a new fighter with Sentinel and Shield Master and a longsword. The main attacks and opportunity attacks do 2 points extra damage per hit (d10 vs d6) which almost offsets the extra damage of the off-hand attack. Meanwhile you have probably more immediate attacks (Sentinel) and bigger ones, the ability to knock people prone, to stop them moving, the ability to use bonus actions, and better protection. I'm unconvinced this is a nerf unless the DM has handed out e.g. a Flametongue Spear.

And remember these are the absolute best builds I'm using for the old versions.

 

[HammerMan]

if I can;t walk into an adventure league game with my 5e warlock cause the new warlock trumps it I will be pissed

You can’t or at least won’t be able to play a 2014 class in a 2024 PHB game most times. I don’t know why people find it hard to understand.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I still don't see the appeal of half-casters personally. I've never seen one where there was an equivalent exchange or any effort to make the spells you're getting three levels late worth it.

The 3.5 Bard had a system where you didn't get signature spells late - as did the PF 1e Summoner

 

[mellored]

Which just leaves the Spear, Shield, and Polearm Master.

Use the trident instead.

D8, with topple.
And don't forget to add advantage from prone.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

OMG I came back just for HOPEing to discus this and I want to puke... they destroyed the warlock and people are still pretending that this is the same version of the game...

 

[Remathilis]

So I opted to see what the difference is between the two warlocks by the numbers.

I quickly made a 7th level warlock. Fiend patron, chain pact. PHB only. Let's look.

2014:
Invocations: Devil's Sight, Armor of Shadows, Agonizing Blast, Voice of the Chain Master
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion
Spells Known: Arms of Hadar, Hex, Burning Hands, Misty Step, Scorching Ray, Fly, Counterspell, Banishment

Spell slots: 2, level: 4th

It's hard to adjudicate how many rests a warlock can get, but let's assume they get two per adventuring day. So with that, they get 6 spells per day, but no more than 2 before resting.

2024:
Invocations: Devil's Sight, Armor of Shadows, Agonizing Blast, Mystic Arcanum (Banishment)
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Fire Bolt
Spells Prepared: Pact Familiar, Arms of Hadar, Hex, Burning Hands*, Command*, False Life, Misty Step, Scorching Ray*, Suggestion*, Blindness/Deafness, Invisibility, Web, Levitate

Spell Slots:
1st: 4
2nd: 3
Plus one free casting of a pact spell (*) and one use of Banishment per day.

Clearly, the 24 warlock has a much wider selection of spells, thanks to access to the full arcane list and all the bonus spells. The free cantrip and hex further adds to it. The cost obviously is having at best 4 2nd level spells and 1 4th level vs 6 4th level. You simply can't compete with spamming banishment six times. Of course, that came with the cost of not doing much else: each use of misty spell cost you a banishment. In fact, nothing quite came close to it in terms of power in your kit, though maybe counterspelling an opponent's 4th level spell might have (not that monsters cast spells anymore, but I digress).

You might want to argue I didn't pick the best choices per level. I wasn't assuming optimization, but an attempt to make a well rounded caster.


FYI: A 7th level sorcerer who converted all their spell slots to sorcery points, and then used them to create 4th level spell slots could cast banishment... 4 times max per day. In case you wonder how good two short rests are.