D&D (2024) They butchered the warlock in the new packet

[Remathilis]

so that is the price of failing a save. That's like arguing "I should be at full hp still I only failed 1 dex save"

Not the same.

If I lose hex in 24. I can recast it. It costs me one first level slot, of which I have four. If I lose and recast it in 14, I've used up my spells until I rest. Meaning if I lose it in my first encounter of the day, I either recast it and immediately rest or I go without a key part of my kit.

 

[fuindordm]

There is a strange tendency in this packet to define class powers in the spell framework.

Pact boons = cantrips
Wizard research and metamagic = spells with ritual tag (BIG throwback to AD&D and while I love that edition I did not miss read magic and write at all moving forward)
Sorcerer signature abilities = spells (OK this makes sense since activating them uses magical energy)

What's next?
Channel divinity = spell?
Wild shape = spell?
Ranger multiattack = spell? (Oh wait, we already have that one )

I fail to see the benefit. And does this mean the party can find a scroll with Create Spell ?

 

[Mephista]

There is a strange tendency in this packet to define class powers in the spell framework.

Pact boons = cantrips
Wizard research and metamagic = spells with ritual tag (BIG throwback to AD&D and while I love that edition I did not miss read magic and write at all moving forward)
Sorcerer signature abilities = spells (OK this makes sense since activating them uses magical energy)

What's next?
Channel divinity = spell?
Wild shape = spell?
Ranger multiattack = spell? (Oh wait, we already have that one )

I fail to see the benefit. And does this mean the party can find a scroll with Create Spell ?

Over on reddit, someone suggested the "Everything's a Spell" approach is to make it easier to implement in VTT. Not sure how true it is. Or someone thought it was a clever way to make everyone feel more "Mage Group"-y. You'll notice how mages are the first group without an unifying feature.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So I opted to see what the difference is between the two warlocks by the numbers.

I quickly made a 7th level warlock. Fiend patron, chain pact. PHB only. Let's look.

2014:
Invocations: Devil's Sight, Armor of Shadows, Agonizing Blast, Voice of the Chain Master
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion
Spells Known: Arms of Hadar, Hex, Burning Hands, Misty Step, Scorching Ray, Fly, Counterspell, Banishment

Spell slots: 2, level: 4th

It's hard to adjudicate how many rests a warlock can get, but let's assume they get two per adventuring day. So with that, they get 6 spells per day, but no more than 2 before resting.

2024:
Invocations: Devil's Sight, Armor of Shadows, Agonizing Blast, Mystic Arcanum (Banishment)
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Fire Bolt
Spells Prepared: Pact Familiar, Arms of Hadar, Hex, Burning Hands*, Command*, False Life, Misty Step, Scorching Ray*, Suggestion*, Blindness/Deafness, Invisibility, Web, Levitate

Spell Slots:
1st: 4
2nd: 3
Plus one free casting of a pact spell (*) and one use of Banishment per day.

Clearly, the 24 warlock has a much wider selection of spells, thanks to access to the full arcane list and all the bonus spells. The free cantrip and hex further adds to it. The cost obviously is having at best 4 2nd level spells and 1 4th level vs 6 4th level. You simply can't compete with spamming banishment six times. Of course, that came with the cost of not doing much else: each use of misty spell cost you a banishment. In fact, nothing quite came close to it in terms of power in your kit, though maybe counterspelling an opponent's 4th level spell might have (not that monsters cast spells anymore, but I digress).

You might want to argue I didn't pick the best choices per level. I wasn't assuming optimization, but an attempt to make a well rounded caster.

The thing here is that I don't think many people are claiming that the 2014 warlock is broken-good. Decent, yes. Broken-good when compared to e.g. the wizard, no. And I don't think your D&Done warlock is in the league of your classic one.

Anyway, build critique:

• Armour of Shadows for the 2014 warlock with light armour is at best a "style invocation". When you can wear light armour for Dex +12 spending an entire invocation for Dex +13 is a waste. (It's even worse in the D&Done warlock where you can wear medium armour or even just spend a first level slot for Mage Armour). This is literally the worst invocation in the entire playtest packet; Fiendish Vigour (False Life At Will) is a far better choice if you want an invocation to make yourself tougher - and it doesn't have great scaling.
• Scorching ray barely does more damage than a two-bolt Eldritch Blast and it does the same thing.
• Arms of Hadar was a fine warlock spell at level 1 - but the upcast version is awful. It should be traded out for Hunger of Hadar at level 5 or 6
• Likewise Burning Hands for Fireball
• Not that you need either both Arms of Hadar and Burning Hands or Hunger of Hadar and Fireball as your messy AoE of choice.

So our 7th level "classic" warlock might instead know Hex, Misty Step, Blindness/Deafness, Invisibility, Fly, Fireball, Counterspell, Banishment. (The only one of these spells that doesn't scale is Misty Step); I don't think that this caster is any less well rounded than either of yours. And this ability to dump their out-leveled spells is one of the reasons the warlock doesn't lead to as much analysis paralysis and reading through spells a little lost as other casters.

FYI: A 7th level sorcerer who converted all their spell slots to sorcery points, and then used them to create 4th level spell slots could cast banishment... 4 times max per day. In case you wonder how good two short rests are.

The reason you'd do that is if you wanted to cast banishment four times in one fight. The warlock can't do that; part of the point of the warlock's mechanics is to cap their ability. And all Banishment really is in most cases is a save-or-don't-be-here spell. It's a spell to bring down on a boss monster.

 

[Neonchameleon]

so we loose fly and counter spell and the Voice of the Chain Master
we gain firebolt, burning hands command scorching ray suggestion blind/deaf invisibility web and levitate

I don't know about voice of the chain master I never took it before but fly and counter spell sound way better then anything on the other list

It's far far worse than that because of level scaling. Invisibility cast by the 2014 warlock is cast at 4th level so works on three targets; by the D&Done warlock it only affects one. And there are other such differences.

 

[Nightfly]

Someone in the other thread pointed out that the Champion subclass in the playtest has an ability that can be used, quote, "once per combat".

HEY WOTC! If you're letting the "combat power" cat out of the bag, that is how you re-do the warlock right there.

 

[Vaalingrade]

There is a strange tendency in this packet to define class powers in the spell framework.

Pact boons = cantrips
Wizard research and metamagic = spells with ritual tag (BIG throwback to AD&D and while I love that edition I did not miss read magic and write at all moving forward)
Sorcerer signature abilities = spells (OK this makes sense since activating them uses magical energy)

What's next?
Channel divinity = spell?
Wild shape = spell?
Ranger multiattack = spell? (Oh wait, we already have that one )

I fail to see the benefit. And does this mean the party can find a scroll with Create Spell ?

Arcane Move Action

 

[Mephista]

Someone in the other thread pointed out that the Champion subclass in the playtest has an ability that can be used, quote, "once per combat".

HEY WOTC! If you're letting the "combat power" cat out of the bag, that is how you re-do the warlock right there.

No, you don't. Because warlocks are casters, and, unlike martials, get thing to do outside of combat. How do you deal with a warlock spending their spell slots in a social situation? Or how about The Wild Beyond the Witchlight, an adventure noted for its ability to avoid all combats and complete the story.

 

[mamba]

Over on reddit, someone suggested the "Everything's a Spell" approach is to make it easier to implement in VTT. Not sure how true it is. Or someone thought it was a clever way to make everyone feel more "Mage Group"-y. You'll notice how mages are the first group without an unifying feature.

I wouldn’t rule it out, but how you represent a feature internally in your VTT at a technical level does not need to match how the book describes it, as long as they function the same way.

Feats, skills and spells could all be versions of the same versatile VTT ‘template’, or they could all be distinct.

 

[mamba]

Someone in the other thread pointed out that the Champion subclass in the playtest has an ability that can be used, quote, "once per combat".

HEY WOTC! If you're letting the "combat power" cat out of the bag, that is how you re-do the warlock right there.

yeah, fix that, no per combat abilities…