D&D (2024) They butchered the warlock in the new packet

[Remathilis]

I think one of the biggest problems is only four classes (fighter, monk, warlock and moon druid) have bread and butter abilities* tied to short rest. Cleric, other druids, bards, and wizards get benefits from them, but they are usually minor benefits compared to their major ability of spellcasting. But everyone benefits from a long rest.

Further, many players only take rests based on hp depletion, not resources. So if a group takes on two encounters but maintains the majority of their HP, they are less likely to short rest, even if they have expended short rest abilities. It is usually a mix of HP attrition and lack of sufficient spell support that forces a long rest. Especially when spells like Prayer of Healing (aka the 10 minute fake rest) or Healing Spirit could be used to replace a short rest for topping off health.

(I'm sure there are groups who are more diligent about short rests every so many encounters, but from what I have seen and read about, I don't think it was prevalent enough, ergo the rise of prof mid/day.)

Of course, this is all in addition to adventures where short rests aren't available. Specifically, adventures where time is of the essence or the PCs risk continuous assault by stopping. You can't take a short rest in a prison break or racing to stop a murderer.

Ideally, the best example of what a short rest ability should look like is Arcane Recovery. It recharges a few spell levels worth of spells once per day during a short rest. If you don't get it, you're really not hurting about it, but if you can get in a rest, it's pure upside. More classes should have features where you have X per day, but you can recover one from a short rest. (A good example would be sorcerers who recover a few spell points on a SR). In the warlock's case, giving them a recoverable spell slot that they can use to fuel Mystic Arcanum spells in addition to the half-caster would be a good idea. Something that if they can't short rest doesn't deprive them of assumed power, but if they do can give them a one time boost.

* That is to say, something that actually affects their play style. A moon druid is a weaker land druid without WS, fighters and warlocks can't nova, and monks are just weaker fighters without their special abilities. They can be played, but the loss is louder than a cleric without channel divinity or a bard without inspiration.

 

[Charlaquin]

It's been a long time, but I believe they considered what you were proposing, and the community at the time felt 5 minutes to burn hd was "regenerating like Wolverine" and the cap was artificial on how often you could rest in a given day. In the end, they opted for a short rest long enough that you wouldn't take it after every encounter (as 4e did) but you could theoretically take any number you want.

Correct. I think they were 10 minutes, but yeah, they were a reasonable length of time to get after every encounter and people didn’t like that.

 

[shadowoflameth]

The warlock lost their pact magic to become a half-caster like the paladin and the ranger.

This of course makes the game less interesting and the warlock a lot blander. It also means that the warlock's role as the newbie spellcaster (or indeed any sort of primary spellcaster alternative) has gone; they have just as long a list of spells to juggle as anyone else and just as much faff to do with spell slots.

You can get higher level spells ... by using invocations on Mystic Arcana. You only get one more invocation total than you used to.

Oh, and the paladin still wants to dip one level of warlock to grab the blade cantrip. Eldritch blast dipping is now gone. And the warlock is now tied to the Hex spell - which doesn't have anything to prevent it clashing with e.g. other concentration spells.

This seems to be a warlock made entirely to appease those who disliked warlocks

I played a warlock in 5E to 19th level and I don't see anything in the playtest that I outright hate. Removing Pact Magic and using the same system as other half casters is a bit disappointing because you lose the option to have all your spells be in the higher level slot. Perhaps they could come up with something for that, and make a warlock able to up-cast more often, but the change to Mystic Arcanum means that the Bard is no longer the only go-to for a character with unusual spell combos. Not to mention that the way it's written, Warlocks other than the Genie Patron can now get Wish. I'm sure there's some broken combos there that people will find, especially with rules for making your own spells, and putting Patron at 3rd is good. It means less cheesy 1 level dipping on the Hexblade. I see Warlock/Wizard multi becoming very popular if these rules survive playtest.

 

[Bacon Bits]

I think one of the biggest problems is only four classes (fighter, monk, warlock and moon druid) have bread and butter abilities* tied to short rest. Cleric, other druids, bards, and wizards get benefits from them, but they are usually minor benefits compared to their major ability of spellcasting. But everyone benefits from a long rest.

Further, many players only take rests based on hp depletion, not resources. So if a group takes on two encounters but maintains the majority of their HP, they are less likely to short rest, even if they have expended short rest abilities. It is usually a mix of HP attrition and lack of sufficient spell support that forces a long rest. Especially when spells like Prayer of Healing (aka the 10 minute fake rest) or Healing Spirit could be used to replace a short rest for topping off health.

(I'm sure there are groups who are more diligent about short rests every so many encounters, but from what I have seen and read about, I don't think it was prevalent enough, ergo the rise of prof mid/day.)

Of course, this is all in addition to adventures where short rests aren't available. Specifically, adventures where time is of the essence or the PCs risk continuous assault by stopping. You can't take a short rest in a prison break or racing to stop a murderer.

Ideally, the best example of what a short rest ability should look like is Arcane Recovery. It recharges a few spell levels worth of spells once per day during a short rest. If you don't get it, you're really not hurting about it, but if you can get in a rest, it's pure upside. More classes should have features where you have X per day, but you can recover one from a short rest. (A good example would be sorcerers who recover a few spell points on a SR). In the warlock's case, giving them a recoverable spell slot that they can use to fuel Mystic Arcanum spells in addition to the half-caster would be a good idea. Something that if they can't short rest doesn't deprive them of assumed power, but if they do can give them a one time boost.

* That is to say, something that actually affects their play style. A moon druid is a weaker land druid without WS, fighters and warlocks can't nova, and monks are just weaker fighters without their special abilities. They can be played, but the loss is louder than a cleric without channel divinity or a bard without inspiration.

Only applying to a few classes and subclasses is a major part of it, yes. 5e is the only time I recall our party ever having disagreements about resting.

In old editions it was like:

Fighter: How about we rest?
Wizard: I'm fine to keep going.
Fighter: Well, I'm at 10 hp.
Cleric: And I'm out of cure spells.
Wizard: Camping it is.

In 5e, on a (blessedly) few occasions:

Fighter/Warlock/Monk: How about we short rest.
Sorcerer: I'm fine to keep going. I've got half my spells left.
Barbarian: Me, too. I've got Rages left.
Rogue: I'm alright for another few encounters.
Cleric: Me, too. I've used my turn undead but I don't need it. Do you still need healing?
Fighter/Warlock/Monk: No, I'm close to max, but I have no abilities left after two encounters. I'm on auto-attack until we short rest.
Sorcerer: Let's just keep going. There's no benefit for the rest of us to short rest at all.
Fighter/Warlock/Monk:

More often it looked like this:

Fighter/Warlock/Monk: How about we short rest.
Sorcerer: I'm just about spent. I've got 2 spells left.
Barbarian: I've got 1 Rage left, but that's it.
Rogue: I'm alright for another few encounters if I can heal a bit.
Paladin: I have no spells left and no paladin healing left. Don't you still need healing?
Fighter/Warlock/Monk: We've got hit dice for healing. I can keep going. I just want to recover my abilities.
Sorcerer: Let's just long rest. There's no benefit for the rest of us to short rest at all.
Fighter/Warlock/Monk: Fine, sure.

So the fact that the Fighter (or Warlock or Monk) can short rest recover often just doesn't come up.

It was bizarre. My first hint that something was rotten in the state of rest & recovery. Especially because hit dice are the only thing that doesn't fully recover on a long rest. It's less attrition to burn spells to heal and recover them with a long rest than using hit dice.

I still remain convinced that the way the DMG got to 6-8 encounters was to take the old 3-4 encounter difficulty and low-ball it. That way you double the number of encounters per day and decrease their difficulty. Why do you want to do that? Because you increase the likelihood that the PCs will want to short rest to spend Hit Dice instead of long rest to recover everything because attrition per encounter is reduced. It's a subtle way to encourage short rests. Unfortunately, it doesn't work so well with non-standard adventuring days. Also, a lot of people seem to complain about encounter difficulty and difficulty getting the PCs to complete that many encounters. I know when I run, I can regularly pack the whole day with Deadly or Deadly+ encounters, and if I don't my players get bored with combat.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I played a warlock in 5E to 19th level and I don't see anything in the playtest that I outright hate. Removing Pact Magic and using the same system as other half casters is a bit disappointing because you lose the option to have all your spells be in the higher level slot.

It's disappointing because I'm juggling the lower level slots at all. I need to care at the table how many slots I have left, what level each spell is, what level I upcast to. I can do all that - but not having to just makes a nicer experience for me. The new version also makes the warlock less more distinctive and more like a magical cheat who made it through magic classes when they really shouldn't have because they don't have the foundations and low level slots and more like someone who flunked magic class.

The thing I hate is that they ruined the warlock to produce this generic off-the-shelf half-caster and in doing so homogenised the game.

It means less cheesy 1 level dipping on the Hexblade. I see Warlock/Wizard multi becoming very popular if these rules survive playtest.

The paladin's still dipping the warlock because of the way Pact of the Blade is written. And dealing with the cheesy dipping didn't require destroying Pact Magic.

 

[Parmandur]

Maybe it's because Crawford keeps insisting that you will, in fact, be able to do exactly that?

I mean, people already are doing that with playtests. Even this radical new Warlock still works with 2014 Subclasses.

 

[TwoSix]

Fighter/Warlock/Monk: How about we short rest.
Sorcerer: I'm fine to keep going. I've got half my spells left.
Barbarian: Me, too. I've got Rages left.
Rogue: I'm alright for another few encounters.
Cleric: Me, too. I've used my turn undead but I don't need it. Do you still need healing?
Fighter/Warlock/Monk: No, I'm close to max, but I have no abilities left after two encounters. I'm on auto-attack until we short rest.
Sorcerer: Let's just keep going. There's no benefit for the rest of us to short rest at all.
Fighter/Warlock/Monk:

And that's exactly why I think the best overall fix is to make short rest recharging an individual activity, that primarily occurs in the metagame. You can easily skin some narrative on it ("as we walk, I wrap some bandages around my cuts and bruises and do some deep breathing, refreshing my reserves") if you want, but like most other game elements around resources and recharging, it just has to not NOT make sense, rather than be tightly aligned to a narrative.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

the change to Mystic Arcanum means that the Bard is no longer the only go-to for a character with unusual spell combos. Not to mention that the way it's written, Warlocks other than the Genie Patron can now get Wish.

That's a consequence of the new unified arcane spell list, not the changed Mystic Arcanum. The Wizard is able to cast any spell a warlock can learn with Mystic Arcanum, and can do it more often.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Only applying to a few classes and subclasses is a major part of it, yes. 5e is the only time I recall our party ever having disagreements about resting.

In old editions it was like:

Fighter: How about we rest?
Wizard: I'm fine to keep going.
Fighter: Well, I'm at 10 hp.
Cleric: And I'm out of cure spells.
Wizard: Camping it is.

In 5e, on a (blessedly) few occasions:

Fighter/Warlock/Monk: How about we short rest.
Sorcerer: I'm fine to keep going. I've got half my spells left.
Barbarian: Me, too. I've got Rages left.
Rogue: I'm alright for another few encounters.
Cleric: Me, too. I've used my turn undead but I don't need it. Do you still need healing?
Fighter/Warlock/Monk: No, I'm close to max, but I have no abilities left after two encounters. I'm on auto-attack until we short rest.
Sorcerer: Let's just keep going. There's no benefit for the rest of us to short rest at all.
Fighter/Warlock/Monk:

More often it looked like this:

Fighter/Warlock/Monk: How about we short rest.
Sorcerer: I'm just about spent. I've got 2 spells left.
Barbarian: I've got 1 Rage left, but that's it.
Rogue: I'm alright for another few encounters if I can heal a bit.
Paladin: I have no spells left and no paladin healing left. Don't you still need healing?
Fighter/Warlock/Monk: We've got hit dice for healing. I can keep going. I just want to recover my abilities.
Sorcerer: Let's just long rest. There's no benefit for the rest of us to short rest at all.
Fighter/Warlock/Monk: Fine, sure.

So the fact that the Fighter (or Warlock or Monk) can short rest recover often just doesn't come up.

It was bizarre. My first hint that something was rotten in the state of rest & recovery. Especially because hit dice are the only thing that doesn't fully recover on a long rest. It's less attrition to burn spells to heal and recover them with a long rest than using hit dice.

I still remain convinced that the way the DMG got to 6-8 encounters was to take the old 3-4 encounter difficulty and low-ball it. That way you double the number of encounters per day and decrease their difficulty. Why do you want to do that? Because you increase the likelihood that the PCs will want to short rest to spend Hit Dice instead of long rest to recover everything because attrition per encounter is reduced. It's a subtle way to encourage short rests. Unfortunately, it doesn't work so well with non-standard adventuring days. Also, a lot of people seem to complain about encounter difficulty and difficulty getting the PCs to complete that many encounters. I know when I run, I can regularly pack the whole day with Deadly or Deadly+ encounters, and if I don't my players get bored with combat.

If a 5e Short Rest wasn't unnecessarily long for no good reason, this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Nightfly]

I was thinking to myself that it was a shame this thread went off topic and became a debate about short rests. Then I realized that was not off topic because discussions about the warlock begin (and maybe end) with the short rest mechanic.

I don't think that's a compliment to the design of the non-playtest warlock, but obviously there's disagreement on that point.