D&D General Fighting Law and Order

[pemerton]

But they happen all the time in a world with verisimilitude. Which is why games like DW don't appeal to me.

LotR is a pretty verisimilitudinous novel. But we don't have "nothing happens".

REH's Conan stories don't have "nothing happens" either.

There's no tension between verisimilitude and rising action.

 

[Micah Sweet]

LotR is a pretty verisimilitudinous novel. But we don't have "nothing happens".

REH's Conan stories don't have "nothing happens" either.

There's no tension between verisimilitude and rising action.

First of all, there are clearly plenty of times when nothing happens in LotR, they just don't get put on the page because it's a story and the focus is on things happening. An RPG shouldn't, in my opinion, be presented as a story, but rather as a setting that the PCs interact with and change through their actions.

That's my whole problem with the narrative/story game sphere. I don't want to describe anything in my campaign as "rising action", and I don't create plots for the players to run through. I provide a setting where there are lot of points of interest to explore, and reasons to visit them, and let the players decide what to do. Otherwise, the world keeps spinning, which means sometimes nothing happens.

 

[pemerton]

First of all, there are clearly plenty of times when nothing happens in LotR, they just don't get put on the page because it's a story and the focus is on things happening. An RPG shouldn't, in my opinion, be presented as a story, but rather as a setting that the PCs interact with and change through their actions.

That's my whole problem with the narrative/story game sphere. I don't want to describe anything in my campaign as "rising action", and I don't create plots for the players to run through. I provide a setting where there are lot of points of interest to explore, and reasons to visit them, and let the players decide what to do. Otherwise, the world keeps spinning, which means sometimes nothing happens.

DW has nothing to do with "creating plots for the players to run through". In fact, the structure of play which I set out in some detail not all that far upthread actively precludes any such thing.

It is D&D that is the quintessential RPG of "plots for the players to run through" - see most module published since DL - and games like AW are a reaction against that sort of RPGing.

As far as your comment about LotR, if it's not on the page then it's not in LotR! More or less by definition I would say, given that LotR is a book.

Just as you can imagine such times occurring to the protagonists of LotR, although JRRT doesn't waste our time on them, so a DW participant can imagine such times occurring to the protagonists in their game, but the table doesn't waste time on them.

As far as your preference for RPGing to be about the players engaging with a pre-established setting - ie declaring actions which prompt the GM to reveal more of that pre-established material - it is noted. The point that came up - I think from @EzekielRaiden and @AbdulAlhazred, and then elaborated by me - is that a different approach will be better suited to avoiding the problem set out in the OP.

 

[Oofta]

Yeah, I think one of the differences here is really this. Dungeon World, as a PbtA game, is pretty focused on bringing out the individual traits and building the action on top of who the PCs are. I'm not sure what individual vs group really necessarily means, because DW has 'bonds', which means associations between a PC and someone else, USUALLY another PC (though it could be an NPC as well) that are worth XP to act on. Bonds are also legitimate things for the GM to look at and frame scenes against, or put pressure on with a move. That means, if something happens to the Wizard, the Fighter, who 'swore to protect the wizard' is now also part of whatever happened (I mean, he COULD walk away of course, but even that's something). However, the party is made up of people, they aren't glued at the hip, and sometimes things take a direction that is mostly about the Fighter, and sometimes it might be more about the Wizard.

D&D has always been more about group success and synergy to me. Yes, individual PCs have different goals and desires. I'm certain that different groups focus far, far more on individual stories than I do. But the difference is that since D&D is more external to the character driven, you can't get too caught up in an individual's story because you can't guarantee that the PC will be there next session, much less the player. But it's not that characters and player choice are unimportant in my game. Other actors and events can be dramatically impacted by what the PCs do. I've had what was supposed to be a high-tier BBEG turned into an ally because the PCs repeatedly came to her aid and support while she was still being groomed.

On the other hand, the world doesn't revolve around the characters.

Yeah, there's definitely no 'telling a story' in DW, story is emergent, for sure. At most the GM thinks "Well, I need to make a move here. I know, the PCs let that bandit get the slip and they never followed up on that. He's going to come back and kidnap Gramps!" Maybe now I need to know where Gramps actually lives, because it wasn't determined earlier so I ask "Hey, Graaahhh Foecrusher, where does Gramps live?"

I just see this as one person creating a menu of options that doesn't particularly address the other participants. DW will START with character creation, before there is any conception of setting at all (though honestly a lot of times people have already decided to play a game of sort X, Y, or Z and perhaps even where it is set). Still, everything is built outwards from the PCs. A PC comes with a few pieces that are going to tell us what we could do with them, bonds, alignment, race, playbook, and then we'll start with asking some questions to construct enough backstory to get started. The GM might ask the fighter "who gave you your signature weapon?" etc. She might even ask a player to describe what the PCs are doing right now. That sort of thing. An opening scene can then be played through, and possibly on into the beginnings of whatever adventure that suggests.

The GM is certainly allowed to have ideas, even 'stuff' that they're interested in using. Ideas ideally should be run by the players, or a hook given that they can decide to act on or not. After the first session the GM is going to do some work on fronts, maybe sketch out a map or two, etc. Personally I don't normally create a campaign front (a major campaign-wide theme) right off. Its better to create couple adventure fronts that set up the things the PCs seem interested in and give them some life. Maybe one is whatever they were heading towards, another could be a possible distraction, or something that another character will especially engage with. Soon the PCs will need R&R, and at that point a Steading can be created (town, village, etc.).

I think that your approach is very much what Gygax and Arneson were doing. I think it comes straight out of wargaming/Free Kriegsspiel. Those are essentially systems where everything is pregenerated, and the scenarios are flat out a test of player skill, or in the FK case a literal realistic training exercise. But I don't think that original formula really accounts for 'open world' play! In the early days, if a PC left "Castle Blackmoor" and went elsewhere, there simply wasn't any provision for that at all. Its not just that the GM had to work it out, its that there isn't any provision for it at all. The game doesn't even really have quantifiable measures of play (loot and XP) nor fixed sorts of hazards and things that the GM can judge the nature of unequivocally. Now, obviously modern D&Ds have added skills and whatnot to help with that.

My campaigns are driven by group choice in my games, I may provide the broad outline but they still choose the direction. Even then though, it is a democratic choice and vote amongst the players. I pitch campaign ideas that I'm willing and able to run. During the campaign I have the group vote on which direction to go based on the threads I've dangled, or they can suggest following up on something else that's been presented.

While I may have potential arcs thought out ahead of time, I don't have a preplanned story. That's more an artifact of how most modules are written. My campaigns are less character driven, obviously, than PbtA games but also far more flexible than most mods or old school dungeon crawls.

As for DW, its just a different starting point, its neither more nor less open-ended, but it has SOME virtue in that it addresses happenings in terms of their social and psychological dynamics. Its about "what do you want or need?" and then whether you will get it, and how, and what does that mean in terms of your character's personality, his relationships, as well as his physical and economic situation.

I don't think its rambling really. I think there's plenty going on in all these different games. I do, personally, feel like games like DW cut to the chase a bit more, and grab everyone. Like in the old days I'd often find myself rather bored by yet another low level D&D slog where we were more like the local garbage men making our 100th run. D&D always dangled some sort of exciting heroic play just out of reach. That was the essence of 4e, D&D that cuts to the chase (though it still has a lot of levels they were all pretty fun).

D&D can have boring slogs. Some DMs just don't really know how to run a campaign that reacts to the players, with the OP being a prime example. Others, like a DM I had a while back, meant well but just couldn't breath life into the Waterdeep: Dragon Heist campaign. It's not that they were a bad DM, it's just that WDH is more of a campaign setting with an outline of a campaign attached. It's meant to set up a playground, but the DM has to fill a lot in, and this DM just didn't. My wife and I had started a WDH campaign with a different DM right before it was cancelled due to COVID and it was amazing. Some of it was DM skill but I think primarily it was just the attitude that they just weren't expecting the kind of linear flow other modules enforced.

At the same time I think even pretty straight-up dungeon crawls can be made far more enjoyable by the players other than the DM. With the right group, even a dungeon slog can still have a lot of fun RP and interaction. But here's the catch. Some people just want to show up to a game, roll some dice, tell jokes with their friends. They may care deeply about the mechanics of their character and the tactical options of combat (and some may gravitate to different games because D&D 5E isn't tactical enough). I just don't see the PbtA approach working very well for them. Then there are the people that simply aren't very good at extemporaneous creativity and would feel a great deal of pressure if they weren't adding to the game narrative.

One last thought on this. I get the feeling that D&D is more capable of running games for casual players, easier to use as one-shots or with a rotating cast of characters and players. A prime example is Adventurers League, the current public play for D&D. You sit down at a table, play for 4 hours and then the group splits up. Next session you may sit down with the same PC from the previous game but all the players and DM are different. I just don't see that happening with PbtA style games. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I just got into this conversation 39 pages in but...

@bloodtide: It looks like whoever framed the PCs is laughing all the way to the bank. It worked out perfectly. In fact the mysterious character might have even been the one who set up the situation where they were 'forced' to go murderhobo.

In battle, Chaotic situations happen where someone kills a guard by accident(or lack of rules for subduing opponents) and then they feel forced to get rid of a witness and then it gets out of hand...whatever - a series of very bad choices happened.

They don't have to be evil but sure as hell things got out of hand and now they have to deal with it. Maybe they feel terrible about the things they did in the heat of the moment but bad feelings doesn't undo what happened and now they're on the run.

A DM to Player conversation telling them that the game has changed and they can decide what to do:
- they are outlaws and will be hunted.

• What they do is their choice:
• Embrace it and become bandits
• Run away from the bounty hunters
• Try to set things right: turn themselves in, be given an opportunity to raise all the people they killed (but that probably won't work because they were already accused of murder and a shadowy figure will be working against this plan)
• Be the A-Team: wanted by the law while doing good deeds for people as a way to right the wrongs they did.
• Make new identities and leave the country..
• Find out who put them in this situation and exact revenge or whatever..

etc...etc...

Lots of fun to be had as long as they know that society has branded them as murderers.

 

[Oofta]

Well, the problem outlined in this thread, I agree, is mostly a DM issue. But the system was NOT helping. Its inherent in this type of system (though there are ways to mitigate). So, yes, for this kind of scenario something like BitD (handles this quite well, been there, done it) or Dungeon World, etc. would totally avoid the whole RRing issue to start with. Its just a true fact, its not elitism.

So, the GM was maybe ham fisted, but the system let them down at the very start.

WARNING: standard vehicle analogy approaching.

I think of game rules like a tool or a vehicle. Almost all road licensed vehicles will get you from point A to point B for the vast majority of people. Some vehicles, like my old Jeep Wrangler, are designed to go places that my current car simply can't. On the other hand the Jeep was noisy, got terrible gas mileage, had mediocre road handling and safety. If I wanted to go back to Canyonlands National Park in Utah* for off-road camping I'd have to rent or purchase a different vehicle.

My point? It depends on what you value. You say the OP's scenario wouldn't have happened in a PbtA game. Fair enough. But at what cost? How often do campaigns like that really happen? Because the OP's attitude and handling are incredibly extreme. Fortunately it's also incredibly rare. My current car can't do off-road adventures like my old Jeep could. But it doesn't really matter because as much as I enjoyed my Jeep that 1% of the time when I got to use it as an off-road vehicle, 99% of my time spent driving is just flat out better in my car.

For me, I'll put up with the 1% chance that I'll have an awful DM if 99% of the time I get to play a game I have fun playing. I can always find a different DM or become a DM myself. I can't say I'd have fun playing DW.

*really cool off-grid camping place, although not the most technical off road driving I've ever done.

 

[NotAYakk]

I would never agree to this: I Drink. To have even one player say "I want to force you not to drink because I say so" is wrong. YOU as a person, CAN NOT ever tell me what to do. It would be the same if I was to say "I don't want any healthy food eaten during the game". THE EXACT SAME THING.

This reads like:

Pathological Demand Avoidance and ADHD: What's The Relationship?

PDA isn't an official condition but those with ADHD may experience symptoms associated with PDA.

psychcentral.com

which is a real thing. (No, I'm not saying you are bad or evil or crazy for having it, I'm just floating it as something you might find interesting about yourself if it applies).

@Aldarc explained it above, until then I had no idea where the term came from. It's not common.

"All's quiet on the western front"?

All Quiet on the Western Front - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Been turned into a movie 3 times, won or was nominated for multiple top-tier movie awards each time?

I mean, it ain't obscure. This one is on you.

Reading people is a skill. To one that has the ability, people are an open book.

So you are setting off my "you are talking to a sociopath" skills at this point.

If this isn't your intention, maybe mask yourself better. If you don't mind the advice.

Now my reading people skills could be wrong, as I'm sure you'll insist, I'm just saying what vibes you are giving off here.

 

[Oofta]

Why is “would change a killer DM into a better DM” the criteria? Isn’t “would make it easier for new DMs to learn” sufficient?

Okay. I don't think DW is inherently easier for new players either whether or not they are the GM. I suspect it would be more difficult for many players.

I can get into reasons if you want, but that will just lead to more "nah-uh" responses. That, and I don't have time.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hence why I have said what I said: rules help address problems. They can't make it so problems are genuinely impossible. But they can make it so that the kinds of things which usually lead to problems simply...don't make sense within the system, and thus aren't generally done.

We can, and IMO should, find a way to learn from this with D&D. Find ways to capture the DMing wisdom that so many learned the hard way, so that future generations don't have to. As with most things in life, nothing can completely replace practical experience, but an awful lot can be done, and can squeeze more benefit out of the practical experience one gets.

This isn't "oh, DW is just a better game, go play that."

It's "this characteristic is really good, and DW shows that we really can get it. D&D should learn from this example, and add new personalized tools to its own toolbox." And, as others have said, there's even already actual effort to spell out principles and core goals ("agendas") of old-school play.

With serious, deliberate, thoughtful effort, we can build D&D up, so the system can have our backs. Because that's the whole point of having systems--that they can be support when support is needed.

Sure, though I've found there is a strong strain of people who seem determined to 'prove' that classic methods do it all and that anything 'newfangled' smells like elderberries. That is a terribly unhelpful attitude! So, I don't personally know exactly how you would meld certain older style process of play elements, like a GM that owns all the fiction and uses it to tell the players what they can't do, but I have one observation that MIGHT be helpful.

People, me included, have often said something like "Dungeon World tells everyone when they need to say something." Its more than that, it is a VERY concise set of directions for WHEN to talk, WHAT to say, and HOW to say it. All three are important. Finally the core play loop provides the mechanism for injecting the 'problems' (unwanted truths) that are needed to drive play. IMHO if any of that is going to benefit a more classic game approach, that game is going to have to do the same things. HOW that's accomplished, I'm totally agnostic on that, but D&D has not, up to this point, really done this in a clean concise way that is easy to learn, and some parts of it have never been done in D&D at all (maybe 4e, although I think it still could be a lot more clear).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, again, I don't think that having GM or play principles/agendas is so fundamentally incompatible with D&D, especially given how the OSR community developed principles and agendas to describe their own GMing and play principles. Even one of the OSR principles that commonly got thrown around in its early days was adopted into D&D and became a common mantra in the 5e Community: "rulings, not rules." I understand that some Dungeon World principles may be incompatible with certain playstyles or preferences in D&D, but I don't think that they are inherently incompatible with all playstyles and preferences in D&D.

Agreed, but until the structure of the game puts them in place as part of the play loop, I'm skeptical they will have the sheer force they do in DW. I'm the GM, the game says "now you must make a move" and these RULES, they ARE rules, is right there to say how a move is made, and what a move is. You can have reams of pages of GM advice, it exists in bucketloads, but D&D's playloop is much less clear and concise and its harder to know when and where to apply these lessons.