D&D General Fighting Law and Order

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That sounds false.

Game rules actually change play experience, and can turn an otherwise dysfunctional or dull play into an exciting one.
Unfortunately, they can also do the opposite; and make dull that which might otherwise have been exciting. I hit this when playing 3.x D&D - having to track too many rules, character abilities, etc. kept pulling me out of the fiction as a player, and thus significantly dulled some (not all) of the experience.
 

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But if the same module lists, say, giant ants as a wandering monster in those locations, I won't use them; the Orcs would long since have wiped the ants out at source (or harnessed them as a food supply, whatever) and the ghouls would likely take care of any ants they met long before they got to the PCs (though just for kicks and variety I might toss in a giant-ant-ghoul or two).
This is a typical thing a player would say to me in a game. And I will often have a problem with the player that is so fixated on Everything Must Be One Way Only.

Like this example, the player will state as a Fact: One second after finding the giants ants the orcs would have killed them all automatically.

I would just look at the player like....what? Why would you EVER just say game reality JUST alters like that? Of course often the player won't budge an inch: The orcs atuo kill all the giant ants!

I myself, see a game world where anything can happen. Well,,,,how about the orcs don't even know about the ants yet? Maybe the ants just moved in a couple days ago? Maybe the orcs are still trying to come up with a plan? Maybe there are orc politics? Maybe the ants have escaped from the orc ant farm? Maybe there is a small, broken portal that teleports giant ants in? And so on to infinity.

I will never get why so many players get so obsessed with "things must only be one way".
 


At least some of them learn it from GMs for whom things must only ever be one way - no discussion, no adjustment for tastes or other restrictions, just lump it or leave. If they see the ultimatum as the basic unit of discourse, some of them will adopt it as their own, along with other options like learning to never express an opinion of their own.

In my experience, very few players come to gaming with such an attitude, and I’ve interacted with quite a few over the decades. Some do, because the only valid universal statement is that there are no valid universal statements, particularly if they’ve spent time in some other very dysfunctional environment with comparable dynamics - an abusive family or job, say. But in the vast majority of cases, it’s a learned response to what their GMs (and fellow players, to a lesser degree) do.
 

In many published adventures there really isn't much if any in-fiction justification for the wandering monsters they expect a DM to use, which is why I tend to largely ditch wandering monsters unless there is a good justification for their presence.

For example, if the adventure is set in an Orcish stronghold with a population of many dozens then occasionally bumping into a few Orcs makes perfect sense. Or if somewhere in the dungeon there's a spawner that every so often churns out three ghouls at a time, then meeting groups of ghouls makes perfect sense until-unless the spawner is shut down, after which there'll still be some ghouls wandering around but the frequency of meeting them should steadily become lower.

But if the same module lists, say, giant ants as a wandering monster in those locations, I won't use them; the Orcs would long since have wiped the ants out at source (or harnessed them as a food supply, whatever) and the ghouls would likely take care of any ants they met long before they got to the PCs (though just for kicks and variety I might toss in a giant-ant-ghoul or two).

See, but then this is you deciding how the events of play are allowed to go. Instead, why not find a reason for there to be ants in the orc stronghold? This is related to the idea of the GM discovering during play. You roll ants on the random encounter table... now find a way to explain their presence here. Instead of discarding the random element and simply taking the reins yourself.

There has been some interesting things, and I appreciate when people are willing to answer dumb questions. I don't think one set of rules is superior to another for everyone, people like what they like.

I don't think there are stupid questions about this stuff. It's not always easy to understand or explain in a forum, where multiple people are discussing the same topic. I think a lot of good questions were asked.

What frustrated me was the way in which answers given were, at times, twisted to return to the same conclusion.

"How does this work?"
"It works like X."
"Oh, so it's not even Y."

There was a lot of that. A return to the flawed premise rather than consideration and understanding.

But things like "this wouldn't happen", "you won't get bored because of the rules", "you won't have a problem with a DM wielding ultimate power", etc. sound an awful lot like extolling the virtues of a different game system.

I think that "this wouldn't happen" is pretty true of PbtA type games in regard to the situation from the OP. The GM clearly had a lot of input into how that scenario unfolded, and arranged for the situation to go the way it did. If there had been checks on his ability to do that, then it would have went differently. I don't think this is really all that contentious.

I don't think any game can prevent possible boredom. Nor do I think anyone said that. That a game can be designed to focus on more momentous events than another game is just a fact. It can even happen in D&D. For example, I do not roleplay shopping. I just don't do it. You want something, you go to the shop, you pay for it, you have it, and then we move on. If you want to haggle over price or something, we make one roll and then we move on. I'm not interested in pretending to shop, and so I skip it. A lot of people will say "oh but you're missing the possibility of something interesting come up" and so on. I'll take my chances.

As for the DM wielding ultimate power, some games that's just not the case. While this may be someone's preference for their games, it is also just a fact. And I think we can see how that may have influenced the outcome of the OP.

I realize that sometimes it may seem like folks are bashing D&D and claiming that other games are without flaw... I've been guilty of it. But I think in a situation like this thread, we can see the pitfalls of how D&D distributes authority amongst participants, and how games may benefit from alternate structures. It's a perfectly valid point to make.
 

See, but then this is you deciding how the events of play are allowed to go. Instead, why not find a reason for there to be ants in the orc stronghold? This is related to the idea of the GM discovering during play. You roll ants on the random encounter table... now find a way to explain their presence here.
In order to avoid having to clutch at those straws of explanation on the fly during a session and risk coming up with something nonsensical (and believe me, I'm quite capable of coming up with nonsense - some other posters here might agree!), I'm instead going to look at it all ahead of time and either come up with those explanations then and work them in or decide the creatures don't really make any sense in that area and remove them.

Another oddity with some wandering monster tables, particularly in dungeons, is that oftentimes the monsters simply can't get to where they're supposedly being met as wanderers. If the PCs can't get past the big heavy iron door without using lots of strength to open it then the Giant Rats and Carrion Crawlers can't open it either, meaning that until the door is opened those creatures can only be met on one side of it or the other...but I've yet to see a wanderers table that takes this sort of thing into consideration.

(I hit this quite recently while writing an adventure - there's a Zombie spawner in a location and I had to figure out where in the dungeon they could reasonably wander to from there, given that they're brainless and thus too stupid to know how to open closed doors or find secret ones)
 

See, but then this is you deciding how the events of play are allowed to go. Instead, why not find a reason for there to be ants in the orc stronghold? This is related to the idea of the GM discovering during play. You roll ants on the random encounter table... now find a way to explain their presence here. Instead of discarding the random element and simply taking the reins yourself.



I don't think there are stupid questions about this stuff. It's not always easy to understand or explain in a forum, where multiple people are discussing the same topic. I think a lot of good questions were asked.

What frustrated me was the way in which answers given were, at times, twisted to return to the same conclusion.

"How does this work?"
"It works like X."
"Oh, so it's not even Y."

There was a lot of that. A return to the flawed premise rather than consideration and understanding.



I think that "this wouldn't happen" is pretty true of PbtA type games in regard to the situation from the OP. The GM clearly had a lot of input into how that scenario unfolded, and arranged for the situation to go the way it did. If there had been checks on his ability to do that, then it would have went differently. I don't think this is really all that contentious.

I don't think any game can prevent possible boredom. Nor do I think anyone said that. That a game can be designed to focus on more momentous events than another game is just a fact. It can even happen in D&D. For example, I do not roleplay shopping. I just don't do it. You want something, you go to the shop, you pay for it, you have it, and then we move on. If you want to haggle over price or something, we make one roll and then we move on. I'm not interested in pretending to shop, and so I skip it. A lot of people will say "oh but you're missing the possibility of something interesting come up" and so on. I'll take my chances.

As for the DM wielding ultimate power, some games that's just not the case. While this may be someone's preference for their games, it is also just a fact. And I think we can see how that may have influenced the outcome of the OP.

I realize that sometimes it may seem like folks are bashing D&D and claiming that other games are without flaw... I've been guilty of it. But I think in a situation like this thread, we can see the pitfalls of how D&D distributes authority amongst participants, and how games may benefit from alternate structures. It's a perfectly valid point to make.

I'm not discussing PbtA any more. If you want to discuss D&D or details on how you could apply an aspect of another game to D&D that wouldn't require D&D to morph into something it's not, I might be interested in discussing.
 

This is a typical thing a player would say to me in a game. And I will often have a problem with the player that is so fixated on Everything Must Be One Way Only.
The player is probably - and IMO very justifiably - fixated on "everything must make sense unless there's a clear (even if unknown) reason for it not to".

Why? Because if elements in the setting don't make some sort of halfway-consistent sense then how are the players supposed to be able to play their characters and interact with those elements?
Like this example, the player will state as a Fact: One second after finding the giants ants the orcs would have killed them all automatically.

I would just look at the player like....what? Why would you EVER just say game reality JUST alters like that? Of course often the player won't budge an inch: The orcs atuo kill all the giant ants!
That's extreme; but I-as-player would certainly in-character raise the question of "Why haven't the Orcs killed off these ants? Are they farming them? And, why aren't there signs of Orc-ant battles to be found anywhere?"
I myself, see a game world where anything can happen. Well,,,,how about the orcs don't even know about the ants yet? Maybe the ants just moved in a couple days ago?
Sure, that's possible - once. Bit too coincidental if it happens in every dungeon, though.
 

In order to avoid having to clutch at those straws of explanation on the fly during a session and risk coming up with something nonsensical (and believe me, I'm quite capable of coming up with nonsense - some other posters here might agree!), I'm instead going to look at it all ahead of time and either come up with those explanations then and work them in or decide the creatures don't really make any sense in that area and remove them.

Another oddity with some wandering monster tables, particularly in dungeons, is that oftentimes the monsters simply can't get to where they're supposedly being met as wanderers. If the PCs can't get past the big heavy iron door without using lots of strength to open it then the Giant Rats and Carrion Crawlers can't open it either, meaning that until the door is opened those creatures can only be met on one side of it or the other...but I've yet to see a wanderers table that takes this sort of thing into consideration.

(I hit this quite recently while writing an adventure - there's a Zombie spawner in a location and I had to figure out where in the dungeon they could reasonably wander to from there, given that they're brainless and thus too stupid to know how to open closed doors or find secret ones)

I'm reminded of some of the really old school dungeons I ran ages and ages ago. Totally nonsensical, open a door there's a monster in the room. How did they get there? What are they eating? Where do they go poo? No clue.

Random monster encounters, especially in a relatively enclosed area whether cave system or dungeon, are just as bad as far as I'm concerned.
 

In order to avoid having to clutch at those straws of explanation on the fly during a session and risk coming up with something nonsensical (and believe me, I'm quite capable of coming up with nonsense - some other posters here might agree!), I'm instead going to look at it all ahead of time and either come up with those explanations then and work them in or decide the creatures don't really make any sense in that area and remove them.

Another oddity with some wandering monster tables, particularly in dungeons, is that oftentimes the monsters simply can't get to where they're supposedly being met as wanderers. If the PCs can't get past the big heavy iron door without using lots of strength to open it then the Giant Rats and Carrion Crawlers can't open it either, meaning that until the door is opened those creatures can only be met on one side of it or the other...but I've yet to see a wanderers table that takes this sort of thing into consideration.

(I hit this quite recently while writing an adventure - there's a Zombie spawner in a location and I had to figure out where in the dungeon they could reasonably wander to from there, given that they're brainless and thus too stupid to know how to open closed doors or find secret ones)

I mean, rats and carrion crawlers certainly have means of transport beyond what humanoids have. Small tunnels and cracks and such. That's easy, and I thought of it before I even finished reading your post.

I think you're too concerned about nonsense. If they're there, then that's where they are. There's either a reason we can think of, or it remains some unsolved mystery. Based on your past comments, I can't imagine you'd care if the players never learned how the monster got into that part of the dungeon.
 

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