D&D General Fighting Law and Order

[EzekielRaiden]

I've seen parties create all sorts of drama in a completely empty boring cave.

All it takes is a bunch of characters who don't like each other and a stray comment to light the powderkeg...

It's only dead in the water if the players don't hoist some sails and take the helm.

How can they, when the GM's power is absolute?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Lots of people don't like lots of things. I prefer to like things.

I prefer to like things too, but it's not always up to me. Deciding to like things you don't isn't liking them, it's swallowing your irritation.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, but surely you grant that it is better that we do not have to re-domesticate apples, cows, chickens, wheat, and sugarcane, and rediscover mines or chemical processes for harvesting table salt and baking soda/baking powder, simply so we can bake a pie.

The purpose of distilling and preserving the knowledge and experiences of our forebears is so that we can turn what took them years or decades of trial and error into something that instead only takes us days, weeks, or maybe months (if the lesson is quite tricky.) That doesn't mean you can just coast on theory and received wisdom. I'm a big fan of qualia and genuinely agree that there is no substitute for some amount of direct experience. But lots of things learned very, very slowly via direct experience can be learned quickly and effectively via training instead. And some things are almost impossible to teach, but quite easy to pick up with direct experience.

Trying to force 100% of learning to occur purely through direct experience is foolish and wasteful. Many, many things can be learned through teaching and study, thus allowing precious time saved, and enabling direct experience to be focused on the areas it is best at.

To do what you're talking about with gaming, there would need to be actual best practices that are largely agreed upon for gaming, and we know those will never exist.

 

[Aldarc]

If I fail to pick a lock a dozen times straight I can't progress past that area but I can still go elsewhere and do other things.

No failing to pick a lock a dozen times straight. Roll once and "let it ride."

Also, keep in mind that there is a GM dungeon move in DW called "make them backtrack," which basically amounts to this result.

Make them backtrack
Look back at the spaces you’ve added to the map. Is there anything useful there as yet undiscovered? Can you add a new obstacle that can only be overcome by going back there? Is there a locked door here and now whose key lies in an earlier room?

When backtracking, show the effect that time has had on the areas they’ve left behind. What new threats have sprung up in their wake? What didn’t they take care of that’s waiting for their return?

Use this move the make the dungeon a living, breathing place. There is no stasis in the wake of the characters’ passing. Add reinforcements, cave in walls, cause chaos. The dungeon evolves in the wake of the characters’ actions.

Similarly, Stonetop has an Expedition Move (for wilderness or dungeons) called Bar the Way:

Bar the way
They encounter an obstacle, or hit a dead end, or discover they lack something needed to move ahead. They’ve got to find a way through, or over, or to backtrack and find a way around.

Describe what’s barring the way forward, and maybe give an option or two for what they could do instead.

So this could even include a locked door.

 

[Aldarc]

To do what you're talking about with gaming, there would need to be actual best practices that are largely agreed upon for gaming, and we know those will never exist.

We shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good.

 

[CreamCloud0]

But my problem, as noted above, is that I don't see any daylight between "it is not the GM's job to serve [drama and thematic occurrences] up to the players on a silver platter for the players to pick and choose at as they so desire" and "creating plot hooks" like "werewolves in the forest to the north, the crime ring in the city to the south-east and the dragon on the mountain to the west." How are those not being "served" to the players? How is this not a selection, which the players could in fact decide they don't like any of these and instead want to follow up on that one kooky merchant you voiced for two sentences back in session 1? (This is not actually a thing that happened in my game, just a general depiction of the "you never know for sure what players will latch onto.")

i'm saying it's the GM's job to create interesing things in the world to interact with, but it is the player's job to interact with those things, if the player says 'it's my life's ambition to hunt down my father's killer who fled to the eastern savannah' it is not the GM's duty to drop the killer in their lap if the player spends the next 20 sessions revelling and collecting bounties on no-name bandits in small towns on the western coast doing absolutely nothing to search for the killer, the GM could introduce the killer if they want to, but they have no obligation to.

when i say 'on a silver platter' i mean putting the things the players/characters have claimed interest in into their path without the players requiring any active input towards this.

 

[Micah Sweet]

We shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good.

If people can't come close to agreeing on practices (as seems clearly the case here), we can't even get to good, let alone perfect.

 

[Aldarc]

If people can't come close to agreeing on practices (as seems clearly the case here), we can't even get to good, let alone perfect.

This is fundamentally the demand for perfection.

 

[bloodtide]

There are many ways to run a game in D&D, I think that's a strength not a weakness.

I agree. It's why D&D has remained popular and "on top"

Rules can't help people who are bad as DMs because they simply don't care enough to follow guidance or have internalized bad action as being necessary parts of their identity, like the OP.

Well, in my game the Rules are only Suggestions that don't apply to the DM. And I do self identify as Chaotic Evil.

Where rules can help is with DMs who are willing to listen to guidance, but simply haven't yet had the chance to learn good practices, which is probably a pretty large subset of DMs.

It's true a great many DMs need help. But the restrictive moves of the player gothhca games is not really help. It's just a snap reaction to players having so many bad games. The players blame it all on the DMs, and come up with a restrictive set of rules for the DM. Then the players can do whatever they want as the game has no restrictions for them, but as soon as that DM makes a "wrong move" they can lash out and make them sit in the corner.

D&D is fundamentally a game about beating challenges, and every D&D character's arc is intended to be a variation of "Get more power and make numbers go up".

This is only for the mechanical rule playing side of D&D. Though a lot of gamers think that this is all there is to D&D. Too often the Role Playing part of D&D in side lined or ignored for all the crunchy mechanics.

Trying to force 100% of learning to occur purely through direct experience is foolish and wasteful. Many, many things can be learned through teaching and study, thus allowing precious time saved, and enabling direct experience to be focused on the areas it is best at.

This is 100% in my play style and it works great. For the half or so of open minded players. Experience really is the best teacher.

How can they, when the GM's power is absolute?

Sometimes....ahem......the only winning move is not to play.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This is fundamentally the demand for perfection.

Exactly. It is saying, "Unless we get total consensus, no effort is worth it, so don't bother."

This whole "don't bother trying to make things better" attitude is rather pervasive and deeply, deeply frustrating.