D&D General Fighting Law and Order

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That is, the players pick from what the GM offers. That's the railroad.
<snip>
EDIT to add:
Right. This is the railroad. And the players cannot create their own drama and theme. They're stuck with the ones the GM has written, none of which speak to a Dark Elf become embittered and spiteful because of the death of his spouse.
The disconnect here, I think, if you're taking "the GM is providing a choice for this particular moment" to mean "the players are only allowed to pick between those two choices and only follow the GM's story." Those are actually two very different things, and only the latter is actually a railroad.
 

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This is the railroad. The player has to jump through hoops established by the GM (they have to "do things to find it") in order to get to the play that speaks to their concerns.
You mean taking any sort of independent initiative with your character towards the plot threads you want to follow is now ‘jumping through the GM’s hoops’? If i want my character to get stronger I can’t just have them sit in their room day and night doing nothing and then they’ll suddenly level up, they actually need to go out adventuring, find a quest, fight monsters. If i want them to develop their character arc where they learn to become a great leader i need to make them interact in situations where they will need to lead people and will learn from that. If you want to get revenge on the elven ambassador you need to follow them wherever they went and confront them.
 

Cute. You don't think at least that the phrase, "to visit grief upon them" would engender a little question or comment? Its not like you hear people say that every day outside of period romantic literature.
It’s not elementary school prose, sure, but it doesn’t even rise to the level of “High Gygaxian”. (Maybe Mid-Gygaxian?)

Regardless, it never even occurred to me as possibly being game jargon.
 

Really? You think so?

I mean, "railroad" means a specific thing to me when I use it: it means play where all the fictional outcomes have been decided by the GM (see my reply to @Pedantic not far upthread for a slightly more technical setting out of this point).

And so does "artificial": in this context it is OBVIOUSLY a criticism, intended to convey that the game feels unpleasant or alien or not a thing to be done naturally.

If I'm expected to accept, I have done throughout this thread, that it is OK for other posters to call the sort of game I enjoy artificial, why am I obliged to refrain from saying that the sort of game they enjoy is, for me, a railroad?
Well, for one thing, you're not presenting your bespoke definition of railroad as an opinion, but rather as an objective fact. You have to know that a lot of other people here don't agree with that definition, yet you continue to use it casually, as if that's just what the word means.
 

Why yes, it does get boring and frustrating when nothing happens, regardless of the game.

Now you explain how having nothing happen makes the game better and more interesting. Why not give an example from a game you've been in, either as player or GM?


Funny, it has a sidebar on page 402 of the AG (and I found that page because "fail fowards" has an entry in the index):
Fair enough. That can often be good advice, but I would never in a million years want that to be a rule in the game.
 

But the elements those events include are. And the events are just combinations of those elements, plus GM-authored extrapolations from them.
Well now I'm struggling to see what's excluded by this definition. I got the impression it wasn't just the player specifically making declarations beyond their character's direct actions, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
 

Why yes, it does get boring and frustrating when nothing happens, regardless of the game.

Now you explain how having nothing happen makes the game better and more interesting. Why not give an example from a game you've been in, either as player or GM?


Funny, it has a sidebar on page 402 of the AG (and I found that page because "fail fowards" has an entry in the index):
I want to run or play in a world with verisimilitude. Sometimes, in such a world, failure happens without advancing "the story". I accept this as a consequence of the type of gaming I engage in.
 

The GM should decide what the world is like in my view, including whether or not there are spellbooks on that bookshelf a PC randomly decided to search.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I hold a different view.

Why the heck would the player have anything to do with authoring that bit of fiction, and how would them not authoring suddenly be a railroad?
I haven't said that the player would author that bit of fiction.

The player authors the action declaration, "I search the upper floor of Evard's tower for spellbooks". Now, this happened in BW, so the rule for the GM is "say 'yes' or roll the dice". The GM is expected to say "yes" if nothing is at stake (where what is at stake is relative to the players' evinced concerns for their PCs). In this case, there clearly was something at stake: Aramina, Thurgon's travelling companion, had brought them to the tower to find spellbooks, and that was why Thurgon was searching for them. So the GM called for a check (my guess would be Scavenging, though I can't recall for certain anymore).

If the check succeeds, then intent and task are realised: Thurgon finds spellbooks for Aramina.

If the check fails - which it did - then Thurgon's intent is not realised. What he actually found were letters, that appeared to reveal that his beloved mother Xanthippe is, in fact, the daughter of the evil wizard Evard.

The player (me) did not author the fiction, but plah was not a railroad: the stakes and consequences are not being established solely by the GM. They are being authored having regard to my (the players') evinced concerns for my PC - his Beliefs (about Aramina and Xanthippe), his Relationships (to Aramina and Xanthippe), etc. To use the language of AW/DW, this is an example of the GM being a fan of the characters.

Now, when you (@Micah Sweet) say that play should not revolve around the PCs, I take you to mean that play should not play out in the fashion I've just described, and that if the GM has made a decision about what is in the tower (spellbooks, letters, whatever) then that's that. The players can learn about what the GM has decided is there; and the players can choose which "there" to poke around in; but the GM will not author fiction about what is there in response to the players' evinced concerns for their PCs.

The sort of play that I have described in the previous paragraph is what I regard as a railroad. (Again, I repeat this caveat: if essentially we're playing a wargame, like Isle of Dread or White Plume Mountain, then the whole logic of things is different, and the characters are just player pawns. That's not a railroad, but it's not really a game with characters at all in any meaningful sense. It shares a basic similarity of form with the sort of RPGing I enjoy, but in its details is a completely different activity.)

EDIT:
Well now I'm struggling to see what's excluded by this definition. I got the impression it wasn't just the player specifically making declarations beyond their character's direct actions, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
This post provides an illustration. There are many more that you could see in my numerous actual play threads on these boards.
 

What do "to visit grief upon her" and "the situation became charged" mean? Because both those seem like game-specific terms in your example.
Visit grief isn't a game term and probably has its origins in video games. It basically means going to visit someone to asterisk-things up with them.

A charged situation is game terminology (there's the player move "Read a charged situation") and is roughly the same as rolling Insight, but on a situation rather than a single person. You go somewhere, you know something's up, and you want to figure out what.
 

<shrug> My group decided to try the old GDQ series games--the adventures remained the same but the mechanics were updated to 5e. We all found it incredibly boring because there was next to no RP involved.
Fair enough! It's not my favourite thing either - I break out my set of AD&D variant rules maybe once every couple of years, for a session or two.
 

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