D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Pathfinder 1e has mythic tiers that sat alongside class levels that supercharged everyone. Monsters could have mythic tiers too. It sounds a bit like the vibe you’re angling for.

The idea which I don't think you agree with is that high level full casters in 5e (to a lessor extent than in 3e and pf1e though) are already mythical.

The have power, versatility, and reliability that you rarely see in fantasy sources outside supers (Dr. Strange).

IF that is going to remain the case, let's have a martial class that also gets to mythic abilities by high level that doesn't use spellcasting.

Let's also not limit mechanical ways to create these abilities (e.g, fair game to have limited use abilities, narrative control, etc.).

Also if people have no desire for this class to exist or think it already exists or don't understand why it's needed, then just get out of the way and/or support the community members in getting what they want added to D&D as long as it doesn't take away existing options. And as long as said class isn't more powerful or versatile than the current 5e wizard.

 

[Remathilis]

Yeah, fine with that and another reason to have a seperate class. I'd prefer if one of the origins was just "mysterious origin. you live in a fantasy world and must have been touched by something. you start manifesting incredible abilties as you level up". Some people don't want specific backstories and I see no reason they have to have it specified in a world as kitchen sick as D&D.

So, basically yes you are magically infused in some way. Done. Now you have design permission to do anything you want. Add any kind of non spellcasting magically ability. If you keep to martially oriented things then you get the mythic martial at high levels.

This gives permission for hulk/power guy, can slice an atom skill guy, extreme dexterity action hero, etc, etc.

This is level based D&D though so it even makes sense to be basically mundane at early levels and then build up to the mythic stuff, which satisfies those players that want more of a mundane feel at lowers levels.

As for the farm kid, I mean that is the oldest trope in the book right? Local farm kid finds out later he is really son of a god, the last dragon speaker, etc.

Which is my point. Harry Potter gets told he's a wizard living among muggles. Luke Skywalker is a Jedi. Star Lord is the son of a Celestial. They have some hidden origin that makes them more than normal. Imagine if Star Lord could fly just because he was a high level fighter? If Han Solo could move things with his mind because he is just that experienced a pickpocket? That's my conundrum.

If the end goal is fighters that can match wizards in miraculous effects one of the following has to be true:

• The fighter has to have some sort of supernatural power source that fuels supernatural abilities.
• The world is so supernatural that literally anyone can do supernatural things with just training.

But one of those things much be true.

 

[TheSword]

The idea which I don't think you agree with is that high level full casters in 5e (to a lessor extent than in 3e and pf1e though) are already mythical.

The have power, versatility, and reliability that you rarely see in fantasy sources outside supers (Dr. Strange).

IF that is going to remain the case, let's have a martial class that also gets to mythic abilities by high level that doesn't use spellcasting.

Let's also not limit mechanical ways to create these abilities (e.g, fair game to have limited use abilities, narrative control, etc.).

Also if people have no desire for this class to exist or think it already exists or don't understand why it's needed, then just get out of the way and/or support the community members in getting what they want added to D&D as long as it doesn't take away existing options. And as long as said class isn't more powerful or versatile than the current 5e wizard.

Why are you determined that things that do magical stuff can’t be spells? Surely the spell or spell-like ability is the method D&D uses to deliver non-mundane stuff.

It doesn’t matter how you skin it. I have my Witcher style character who has Magic Initiate cast Toll the Dead by presenting substances that are anathema to the foe.

Spells and spell levels are packets of the non-mundane, conveniently categorized. That’s why they are
Ubiquitous across every class. Why does there need to be other alternative non-mundane powers when spells or spell like abilities can just be used instead?

It’s a bit like wanting a separate damage measure than HP, that does the same thing as HP but just exists on different classes. I don’t see the point.

 

[TheSword]

Doppelgänger

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I wish.

In ten years of 5e, multiple groups, I’ve yet to see a single classed fighter played. Not once.

And yet, it’s very common.

Ten years and Battlement Fighters have not gotten a SINGLE new maneuver.

Um…Tasha’s introduced like a dozen or something. Along with a whole section on building Battlemasters.

They still need at-will maneuvers and more dice, but it’s a start.

Pretty much

D&D will never treat Martials the same as Caster until at the earliest 2034 or whenever 6e happens. When all the people who didn't grow up on 80s and 90s fantasy cartoons and anime run the genre.

Harsh truth is that D&D and most of the TTRPGverse is mostly helmed by older folk who prefer High magic casters and low power warriors of the pulp fantasy days. The people who grew up with Lion-o beating up Mumm-Ra with just a magic sword aren't designing the warriors for D&D.

So it's at least 15 years before "I cut his death spell in half" becomes a standard action in D&D.

You know there are young people, like older Gen Z or very young Millenial, working on D&D right now, right?

Heck it’s not even a case of wanting martials to be as powerful or versatile as casters. It’s more I’d just like fighters that didn’t spam the same one or two actions over and over again for twenty levels.

I mean is it too much to as to have five or six options in a given round by the time you hit double digit levels?

You do, though. Attack, grapple, shove, disarm, or use a skill to do something weird.

I was watching the new thundercats then found out about the old one... I bet no one making D&D is my age though.

Idk how young you are, but I’d take that bet.

again so, that is nothing the fighter can stop you from moving was sooner

The fighter can’t create a line that blocks line of sight and stops everyone from crossing it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The saddest thing about this debate is that it ignores the fact that a fighter is better with a wizard helping them out and a wizard is better with a fighter standing between them and their foes.

A wizard and a fighter is better than two wizards or two fighters. In 30 years of gaming, across multiple groups, online and face to face… I’ve never seen a party made up of wizards.

i was agreeing with this post right up until you said wizard+fighter is better than two wizards, which made me stop and think but are they? then i remembered i watched this a little while ago which might be somewhat relevant.

 

[TheSword]

The fighter can’t create a line that blocks line of sight and stops everyone from crossing it.

Well they can close a door and then put their foot against it. Does that work?

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Which is my point. Harry Potter gets told he's a wizard living among muggles. Luke Skywalker is a Jedi. Star Lord is the son of a Celestial. They have some hidden origin that makes them more than normal. Imagine if Star Lord could fly just because he was a high level fighter? If Han Solo could move things with his mind because he is just that experienced a pickpocket? That's my conundrum.

If the end goal is fighters that can match wizards in miraculous effects one of the following has to be true:

• The fighter has to have some sort of supernatural power source that fuels supernatural abilities.
• The world is so supernatural that literally anyone can do supernatural things with just training.

But one of those things much be true.

I think there is a 3rd

The world is so supernatural that the very few masters can do supernatural things at the peak of their training.

But I don't care that much about the specifics in D&D which is so hodge podge anyway.

Just have a class that does cool martial stuff that starts off mundune and gets to supernatural martial feats at higher levels. Justify it with a "mysterious background". Somehow they are different and maybe they are the son of a god, maybe something else. Feel free to flesh it out or not.

Done. Free reign to design because its magic. Don't call it the Fighter because why have to deal with that baggage.

There's the seperate debate on how to make the Fighter or mundane martial cool or powerful enough or complex enough or whatever.

Btw -- I'm actually in the reign in spellcasters camp so we don't have to push martials to these extremes. But I don't see that ever happening again. IF we are stuck will current spellcasters then let's put this optional class in.

 

[TheSword]

i was agreeing with this post right up until you said wizard+fighter is better than two wizards, which made me stop and think but are they? then i remembered i watched this a little while ago which might be somewhat relevant.

Can you summarize the point without me having to watch a thirty minute clip. After two minutes of adverts and intro I lost the will to live.

 

[Minigiant]

You know there are young people, like older Gen Z or very young Millenial, working on D&D right now, right?

You know they don't have lead roles in design that is the core and underpinning of D&D

That's what 5e is. Gen Xers and Baby boomers designed the core. Millenials and Zoomers color the plating.

It's still a game were the abilities of Boromir and Faramir are seen a the pinnacle of combat prowess and therefore them needing artifact weapons and artifact armor at level 20 to be as useful as a level 20 wizard. Because D&D is based on pulp fantasy that stopped being the most popular style of fantasy in the mid 80s and beyond.

Almost no fantasy elements that were in peak popular after 1985 are in the core rules nor core martial classes of 5e. Just subclasses.

That's why martials are so dependent on magic users and magic items in every edition except 4e.