D&D General Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition

[Maxperson]

Other caster? What other caster?

I kid, but, not entirely. This is where playing modules makes such a HUGE difference. There are virtually no enemy casters in modules. ((Yeah, yeah, I know there are a few, sit down in the back)) It's why I always kinda laugh when people talk about losing equipment to fireballs. What fireballs? Monsters didn't have class levels. Most monsters had virtually no spell ability at all. And, again, ranged attacks from enemies? What ranged attacks? Wolves don't have ranged attacks. Most "monsters" don't have ranged attacks - manticores being something of an exception.

See, this is where I don't get it. That 7th level fighter has +1 Plate Mail, +2 shield and probably a 15 or 16 Dex. He's got a -2 or -3 AC. The monsters need 20's to hit him. Certainly any monster like an orc or a hobgoblin that was using a bow. That 7th level fighter could stand there and take literally a hundred attacks and not die. A hundred attacks might hit him 5 times for like 15 points of damage. Meanwhile, he's turned the enemies into a fine red mist.

It's all about different experiences. What you're describing, I never, ever saw in AD&D.

Modules happened........................rarely. At least in my experience. Usually DMs made up the adventures and spellcasters abounded. And fireball traps. And fireball wands. And other spells/traps than fireball that destroyed gear. And crushing which destroyed gear. And accidents with party spellcasters which destroyed gear. And disenchanter beasts which destroyed gear. And rust monsters which destroyed gear. And thieves who stole gear. And getting arrested and having gear impounded and not returned. And...

We had VERY different experiences with 1e.

 

[Velderan]

Other caster? What other caster?

I kid, but, not entirely. This is where playing modules makes such a HUGE difference. There are virtually no enemy casters in modules. ((Yeah, yeah, I know there are a few, sit down in the back)) It's why I always kinda laugh when people talk about losing equipment to fireballs. What fireballs? Monsters didn't have class levels. Most monsters had virtually no spell ability at all. And, again, ranged attacks from enemies? What ranged attacks? Wolves don't have ranged attacks. Most "monsters" don't have ranged attacks - manticores being something of an exception.

See, this is where I don't get it. That 7th level fighter has +1 Plate Mail, +2 shield and probably a 15 or 16 Dex. He's got a -2 or -3 AC. The monsters need 20's to hit him. Certainly any monster like an orc or a hobgoblin that was using a bow. That 7th level fighter could stand there and take literally a hundred attacks and not die. A hundred attacks might hit him 5 times for like 15 points of damage. Meanwhile, he's turned the enemies into a fine red mist.

It's all about different experiences. What you're describing, I never, ever saw in AD&D.

Different experiences. I rarely saw fighters with high dexterity and usually saw high strength/constitution. I did end up with some fantastic stats on the Sega Genesis Warriors of the Eternal Sun video game but that took rerolling probably over 100 times to finally get stats I liked. We also tended to throw more challenging monsters at 7th level characters, so they'd be facing stuff like ogres, werewolves, and minotaur that could hit on less than a 20. Sometimes you'd get something tougher like a hill giant if the random roll on the encounter table deemed today was not your day.

I will say I never saw people lose equipment to fireballs. For whatever it's worth, I went from Basic to 2e never playing 1e so there may have been an optional rule we never used. We did have some characters lose their heavy armor when the choice was remove it or drown. That's largely an edition neutral problem though.

 

[Maxperson]

Or, you sold the Maul and kept your +3 Frostbrand because you didn't have weapon proficiency in warhammer and it was going to be three levels before you could even use it. Oh, and you didn't have a Girdle of Giant Strength, so, that Maul was just dead weight anyway because there was no guarantee that you could get that Girdle.

And the "sickness" is EXACTLY why these sorts of discussions just fly straight up people's left nostrils. Oh noes, people play differently than you do. What calamity.

Weapon proficiencies were a 2e thing, and even then were an optional rule. In 1e fighters could use any weapon that they picked up.

 

[billd91]

Weapon proficiencies were a 2e thing, and even then were an optional rule. In 1e fighters could use any weapon that they picked up.

Nope. Weapon proficiencies were a 1e thing. And not listed as an optional rule. ANYONE could use any weapon they picked up as long as it wasn't prohibited, they just suffered the non-proficiency penalty, which for fighters was low (-2).

 

[billd91]

Or, you sold the Maul and kept your +3 Frostbrand because you didn't have weapon proficiency in warhammer and it was going to be three levels before you could even use it. Oh, and you didn't have a Girdle of Giant Strength, so, that Maul was just dead weight anyway because there was no guarantee that you could get that Girdle.

Lacking weapon proficiency wasn't a huge deal breaker for warrior types. If you really wanted to use that cool weapon, you could, you just suffered -2 to hit. And that may have been OK if the benefits of using it were that cool.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I remember conversations about what to do with all of them. Caddies, buckets, and entire platoons of peasants with +1 swords were discussed.

Early on people moved from GM to GM freely and had stables of characters, so you could pass them on to some of your lower levelled types who could use them (since pretty much everyone but the mage varieties, clerics and monks could do so) but unless you had henchmen (and very few people I played with ever bothered other than maybe one guy as an animal tender) you'd run out of those far sooner than you would +1 Swords. It reached the point in my mid career I'd give them out to other people's lower level characters if they needed one.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Modules happened........................rarely. At least in my experience. Usually DMs made up the adventures and spellcasters abounded. And fireball traps. And fireball wands. And other spells/traps than fireball that destroyed gear. And crushing which destroyed gear. And accidents with party spellcasters which destroyed gear. And disenchanter beasts which destroyed gear. And rust monsters which destroyed gear. And thieves who stole gear. And getting arrested and having gear impounded and not returned. And...

We had VERY different experiences with 1e.

Just to briefly interject- it wasn't just fireballs. It could be dragonbreath.

OR JUST FALLING. OR GETTING HIT BY AN OGRE.

The item saving throw table applied to acid, crushing blows, normal blows, disintegrate, falling, fireballs, magical fire, normal fire, frost, lightning, and electricity.

Falling was a killer of potions, especially because you had a 1 point penalty for each 5' after the initial 5' of falling. So a fall of 35' (for example) would give your items a -6 on saves, and potions would save on a 13 to begin with- meaning your potions in vials would need a 19 or higher, each, to survive the fall.

 

[Towheadedmule]

Modules happened........................rarely. At least in my experience. Usually DMs made up the adventures and spellcasters abounded. And fireball traps. And fireball wands. And other spells/traps than fireball that destroyed gear. And crushing which destroyed gear. And accidents with party spellcasters which destroyed gear. And disenchanter beasts which destroyed gear. And rust monsters which destroyed gear. And thieves who stole gear. And getting arrested and having gear impounded and not returned. And...

We had VERY different experiences with 1e.

In my campaigns, the persons doing the most damage to the PC's gear with fireballs were, well, the players. For some reason, the player spellcasters were not good at math or geometry.

 

[overgeeked]

Just to briefly interject- it wasn't just fireballs. It could be dragonbreath.

OR JUST FALLING. OR GETTING HIT BY AN OGRE.

The item saving throw table applied to acid, crushing blows, normal blows, disintegrate, falling, fireballs, magical fire, normal fire, frost, lightning, and electricity.

Falling was a killer of potions, especially because you had a 1 point penalty for each 5' after the initial 5' of falling. So a fall of 30' (for example) would give your items a -6 on saves, and potions would save on a 13 to begin with- meaning your potions in vials would need a 19 or higher, each, to survive the fall.

The real fun stuff was the explosions, chemical burns, random mutations, or spontaneous monster creation as a result of the mixed potions.

 

[Velderan]

The real fun stuff was the explosions, chemical burns, random mutations, or spontaneous monster creation as a result of the mixed potions.

How did you handle that sort of thing? I don't recall tables for it, but again I didn't play 1e and barely play Basic so maybe they had rules for it there.