D&D (2024) GenCon 2023 - D&D Rules Revision panel

[the Jester]

Ive made my point that this isn't a good way to design a game. Argue the point and skip this pointless side argument.

Well, you've made that claim, anyway.

 

[mamba]

Okay...so why are you assuming the updated versions are only scoring highly because "Basically the 2014 Barbarian, Ranger, Sorcerer, and Champion Fighter are so bad with XGTE and TCOE, even the bad playtest versions are better"? That...seems a lot like your opinion.

no, given that we have their score on the slide, that is wrong...

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Go ahead, search for flying creatures that also have the hover trait other than beholders and incorporeal undead. A low level rogue can drop any flying creature without both at the cost of a d6 sneak damage that they get back (and often multiply it) from fall damage every round at range.

Yup, that part of the design certainly needs to be considered.

This is not a design where there is an assumption that the GM will provide a challenge for the players & be equipped to carry that out, it's a design that assumes the GM is adversarial and players should be equipped with tools to challenge the GM.

But... this conclusion is an extreme take. The first doesn't even remotely imply the second.

 

[Reynard]

DMG will actually guide DMs and not just be a conversion book for old DMs..

I don't know if that is something you took away from it, or something they said, but that is not at all what the 5E DMG is.

It's actually pretty good, in fact, but most DMs think they already know what they are doing so they did not bother to read it. Then they jump on line to complain agout things that are directly addressed in the DMG.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yup, that part of the design certainly needs to be considered.


But... this conclusion is an extreme take. The first doesn't even remotely imply the second.

needs to be considered before pushing it out to test, it's still basically a longer ranged spike chain trip build. Pushing it to test first is like sending code that won't compile to be tested for UX review.

If the first doesn't imply something along those lines of the second it speaks to some very severe problems with the whole testing process if wotc needs playtest feedback on a question like "was the spiked chain tripper build a problem or just not extreme enough".

 

[Scribe]

DMG will come with a full setting

A new one?!

 

[Parmandur]

you pass even without getting an A or whatever that gets you

70% is a c grade, barely passing: 69% means a D and is not enough to pass a class. 90% would be A. WotC is only asking options to be C level in reception, not A.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

No.
Their data was bad because the 2013 surveys included people who ultimately would not play 5e.
WOTC let vegans in a poll about steak temperature.

There are people on these boards who literally say they won't be playing 5E24, because other games/variants already do what they want better, and they get to have their voice heard.

They can't "let people in" or "leave people out" based on whether a person is going to play the game or not. Inclusivity is important. Variance of opinion is important. Everyone who wants to have their opinion heard in the survey, gets to share their opinion via the survey, and that information is important for the designers to see. The designers may be able to learn what is it that is keeping those players from being interested. Even if those people are in a minority, it's good data to have to see people's preferences. And sometimes the data can surprise you.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't know if that is something you took away from it, or something they said, but that is not at all what the 5E DMG is.

It's actually pretty good, in fact, but most DMs think they already know what they are doing so they did not bother to read it. Then they jump on line to complain agout things that are directly addressed in the DMG.

The 5e DMG is go at what it is for.

The issue is that it assumes you already know how to DM. What the DMG does is teah some one how to take their DMings skills and apply and convert them to how 5e works.

If you lack DM skills, it is useless for anything but raw dungeon crawl.

 

[Parmandur]

I think that has to do with what another poster - I think it might have been @mamba - was saying against the 70% playtest threshold. The UAs are actually getting scored, not in a vaccuum, or an absolute scale, but in how they compare to the 2014 version. This doesn't mean that 83% of people like this ranger as their "ideal ranger" - it just means that they like it that much better than the 2014 one.

They aren't testing as a comparison: the questions are a sliding scale of satisfaction with an option as presented, from 1-5. For WotC, they want the average to be closer to 4 than to 3 for it to be meeting design goals.