D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Reynard]

I remember seeing that on the back of comics. In hindsight, it feels a little mean-spirited. Also, his posture makes my back hurt.

That's not what's making your back hurt, friend...

 

[darjr]

Teos remembers.

Alphastream :verified: (@Alphastream@dice.camp)

@WhatDoIKnowJR @darjr@chirp.enworld.org There were a number of estimates on EN World. Some are by RD and subject to all that entails. But some are by astute EN world folks, including 50k subscriptions for $350k/month or $4.2M/year. Subs later seemed to hit over 65k.

dice.camp

 

[Voadam]

• Riggs also spent a lot of time talking about how there was (and still is) a lot of internal politics that goes on with regard to WotC. He cites the company as having no single authority (where D&D is concerned), and that there are factions within the company that are engaged in power struggles to get their respective visions implemented (according to one of his sources, the word "Machiavellian" was used). The pro-OGL and anti-OGL factions are just two of them, and he compared and contrasted the disastrous 4E GSL to what happened this January with the OGL 1.1 fiasco.
• Another example that he uncovered with regard to internal politics was that, right before the 4E Monster Manual went to the printer, someone on the management team (he didn't say who) looked at the book, decided that the monsters' hit points were too low, and raised them all. There was no oversight, no review, no playtesting (in fact, the lack of any sort of organized playtesting for 4E among their fan-base was another point that was brought up), and the result was that a lot of fights against monsters early in 4E's life felt like a slog.

Differences in D&D design visions?

 

[Monte At Home]

Comparing PHB sales isn't a bad overall metric, but it can be misleading. So much of any version's sales come in the first year or couple of years. So what you don't see is that the time between editions really matters. For example, with so much time between 2nd and 3rd, 2E sales were abysmal by the end, with individual supplements selling so few copies that even a small, 2023 publisher would likely find them unsustainable. At the same time, an edition with too short a lifespan isn't going to get its full due. Figuring out exactly how much time should go between new editions has long been a contentious topic, but there's a sweet spot in there somewhere. What these sales figures really show, though, is that in order to be a viable business of the size WotC wants D&D to be, they have to keep putting out new editions.

This is why, when WotC says that the next edition of the game will be last new edition, they're either A. crazy, B. lying, or C. simply changing the terms.

 

[Dausuul]

So, 1.5M for 1E, 1M for 2E, ~1M for 3E, far below 1M for 4E, and 3M and counting for 5E?

Those are some eye-opening figures. I had not realized the 1E boom was so gigantic relative to the editions that followed -- I thought surely 3E must have outsold it eventually. But 3E seems to have barely even nosed out 2E.

And for 5E to double the 1E figure... damn.

You know, the two editions that blew the roof off are the ones that were made without an eye on big money: The original version whipped up by Gygax and Arneson in their spare time, and the "left for dead" edition created by a skeleton crew, with minimal expectations, in the wake of 4E.

 

[Parmandur]

Very interesting, thanks for the rundown.

One final note of interest: Riggs mentioned that he couldn't get anyone to talk to him about what's going on with One D&D

OneD&D is a term they retired months ago: now it's just Unearthed Arcana fir the 2024 5E rulebooks. Nit at all surprising that he can't get "the real scoop" right now, as opposed to things that happened 15 years ago: everyone involved is still at WotC.

 

[Parmandur]

Yup. There were a couple things even I didn’t believe and Ben had the proof to back his statements up.

The only thing mentioned in the rundown that surprised me were the 3E and 3.5 sales figures: and even those make sense of why the D&D team in the Aights went through so many layoffs.

 

[Parmandur]

It will be interesting to see if WotC manages to kill off 3PP support by over reliance on beyond and the new VTT.

That's why they put the rules out in CC: that kills the incentive for 3PP to go off-system.

 

[Parmandur]

I remember seeing that on the back of comics. In hindsight, it feels a little mean-spirited. Also, his posture makes my back hurt.

It was the Bush administration: a different time.

 

[TerraDave]

People who played WoW did try 4e, I remember them. They did not tend to stick. (The next gen did with 5e, but of course this is all anecdotal).

The 3d VTT was clearly the centerpiece of this counter offensive. I saw it debuted to the public the first time I played 4e (and liked it). It just kept crashing.