D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Ondath]

It's oddly satisfying to see so many of the common criticisms that people rightfully made for the last 15 years (and for which you started to get a lot of flak in some circles) finally being recognised by someone in the know. So the game was designed with the goal of emulating WoW's success. So the 4E core books did sell less than 3E and other editions.

 

[darjr]

It's oddly satisfying to see so many of the common criticisms that people rightfully made for the last 15 years (and for which you started to get a lot of flak in some circles) finally being recognised by someone in the know. So the game was designed with the goal of emulating WoW's success. So the 4E core books did sell less than 3E and other editions.

Myths being broken.

 

[eyeheartawk]

Like, did people really think that the Utility, Encounter and Daily power structure strongly resembling ability cool downs from MMOs was just a fortuitous coincidence? Like, really?

It was always so weird to me when people pushed back on that so strongly. That's not even a criticism but an obvious observation.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Meh. What is a historian other than someone that researched historical facts and writes about them?

Apparently you also need a post-graduate degree or it doesn't count.

 

[Malmuria]

It's oddly satisfying to see so many of the common criticisms that people rightfully made for the last 15 years (and for which you started to get a lot of flak in some circles) finally being recognised by someone in the know. So the game was designed with the goal of emulating WoW's success. So the 4E core books did sell less than 3E and other editions.

It speaks to how, when considering game design, we should take into account things other than Designer Intent. Whatever you feel about the design of 4e (or any other edition), it's clear it was in part shaped by prerogatives that had little to do with game design. For example when we have the debate over a game having more or less hard-coded mechanics, I think it's fair to mention that hard-coded mechanics make it easier to automate certain parts of the game for digital environments. When such things showed up in the One dnd playtests, I immediately saw it as trying to design the game for their VTT.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I really do not believe that this is a viable strategy. They have no effective way to compel the use of their digital platform. Their digital platform is pretty good for what it does but what about it is compelling?

Making more and more stuff people want exclusive to it.

 

[Scribe]

Making more and more stuff people want exclusive to it.

Thats not imo a growth plan though. You divert attention that way sure, but you piss an unknown portion of your player base by pushing them to a format/platform they may not be able to, or wish, to use.

How many people have RPG books for systems they will never use on their shelves? I bet most of us.

Now how many people have accounts on VTT platforms they never use, and pay a subscription to regardless? Less, I would argue.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Thats not imo a growth plan though. You divert attention that way sure, but you piss an unknown portion of your player base by pushing them to a format/platform they may not be able to, or wish, to use.

How many people have RPG books for systems they will never use on their shelves? I bet most of us.

Now how many people have accounts on VTT platforms they never use, and pay a subscription to regardless? Less, I would argue.

I agree. However, history tells us that it is a common method used to attempt that goal.

 

[Parmandur]

I expect the numbers to support 3e being a resurgence/revitalization over the last decade of 2e.

And from WotC's perspective dominance over the market through increased market share would have been a good value representing a new era of gaming with D&D back at the helm.

And yet at the time, the main result of the 3E and 3.5 eras were...massive layoffs, from Ryan Dancey on down.

 

[Parmandur]

Now we have the 5e revisions and again it’s got a hard deadline and the suits seem to be rushing it.

I mean, is it, though...? We're still at about a year out from release, and reading between the lines suggests that they have substantially complete versions of all three books in place, though still lgoijg through testing for the bigger aspects. The way Perkins laid out the DMG a couple months ago, it sure sounded like it's feature complete...which the 2014 DMG was not in early 2014, let alone 2013.