D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

This assumes everyone plays the same way.
Thats very true. While some folks want the material to tell you how it is played, some folks want that to be left up to them to decide.
No more so than any other edition of D&D. I'd reject any assertion that singles it out.
Gygax's AD&D states very plainly how it is meant to be played - the PHB states it briefly on p 18, where Character Classes are explained, and then there is a more elaborated 3 column explanation beginning on p 107, under the heading "Successful Adventures". It is reinforced by the action resolution mechanics, which govern dealing with architecture (listening at doors, opening doors, finding hidden doors, mapping, all the architecture-related tricks), with wargame-style travelling through "dungeons" and through wilderness hexes (movement rates and encounter tables), and with encounters (with an orientation towards encounters being with hitherto-unknown beings, with violence an ever-present threat).

As started to happen straight away, though, and as the DL modules made clear in a commercial/publication sense, there was a demand for using some of these elements in a type of game that is quite different from the one Gygax prescribes. The GM's vision of "the story", and some general colour or descriptive ideas coming from PC build, take the place of more formal resolution mechanics.

4e is not particularly well-suited to that sort of RPGing: it is very demanding on the player side to build a PC and thereby generate that general colour or description; its formal resolution mechanics are there in plain sight; and when they are actually used, they give the GM fewer levers of control over how things work out in play.

So I think the issue with 4e's popularity is not that it assumes that everyone plays the same way, but rather that there is a way of playing that is predominant, and 4e is not a very good fit for it.

If you're a potential new player you think a VCR type manual or a story type one is gonna appeal more?
The 4e books are laden with story. I posted some examples upthread. Here's a comparison between the AD&D PHB and the 4e PHB when it comes to Dwarves (purely mechanical information has been elided):

AD&D
The race of dwarves typically dwells in hilly or mountainous regions. . . . As player characters, both dwarves and their cousins the "mountain dwarves" can be considered. . . .

Because of their very nature, dwarves are non-magical and do not ever use magical spells. However, this nature gives them a bonus with regard to their saving throws . . . against attacks by magic wands, staves, rods and spells. . . .

Similarly, dwarves have exceptional constitutional strength with regard to toxic substances, ingested or injected. . . .

All dwarves are able to speak . . . dwarven, gnome, goblin, kobold, and orcish; in addition, dwarven characters are able to speak the "common tongue" of all humankind. . . .

Dwarves are able to see radiation in the infra-red spectrum, so they can see up to 60' in the dark noting varying degrees of heat radiation. . . .

Dwarves are miners of great skill. . . .

In melee combat . . . dwarves add 1 to their dice rolls to hit opponents who are half-orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, or orcs. When being attacked by ogres, trolls, ogre magi, giants, and/or titans, dwarves subtract 4 from their opponents' "to hit" dice rolls because of the dwarves' small size and combat ability against these much bigger creatures. . . .

dwarven characters get a bonus of 1 added to their initial constitution ability, and a penalty of 1 on their charisma score due to racial characteristics. It is very important to note the actual charisma score prior to racial adjustment, however, for dwarven characters do not suffer charisma penalties, nor are they limited to a 16 charisma maximum with regard to their own race.​

4e D&D
Masters of stone and iron, dauntless and unyielding in the face of adversity . . .

Cast Iron Stomach . . . Dwarven Resilience . . . Stand Your Ground . . .

Carved from the bedrock of the universe, dwarves endured an age of servitude to giants before winning their freedom. Their mighty mountain fortress-cities testify to the power of their ancient empires. Even those who live in human cities are counted among the staunchest defenders against the darkness that threatens to engulf the world.

Play a dwarf if you want . . .
*to be tough, gruff, and strong as bedrock.
*to bring glory to your ancestors or serve as your god’s right hand.
*to be able to take as much punishment as you dish out. . ..

Dwarves average about 4½ feet in height and are very broad, weighing as much as an adult human. Dwarves have the same variety of skin, eye, and hair colors as humans, although dwarf skin is sometimes gray or sandstone red and red hair is more common among them. Male dwarves are often bald and braid their long beards into elaborate patterns. Female dwarves braid their hair to show clan and ancestry. Dwarven attire and equipment, including weapons and shields, are decorated with bold geometric shapes, natural gems, and ancestral faces.

Although they reach physical maturity at roughly the same age as humans, dwarves age more slowly and remain vigorous well past 150 years of age, often living to see 200. . . .

Proudly proclaiming they were made from the earth itself, dwarves share many qualities with the rock they love. They are strong, hardy, and dependable. They value their ancestral traditions, which they preserve through the ages as fiercely as they defend the carved structures of their mountain homes.

Dwarves believe in the importance of clan ties and ancestry. They deeply respect their elders, and they honor long-dead clan founders and ancestral heroes. They place great value on wisdom and the experience of years, and most are polite to elders of any race.

More so than most other races, dwarves seek guidance and protection from the gods. They look to the divine for strength, hope, and inspiration, or they seek to propitiate cruel or destructive gods. Individual dwarves might be impious or openly heretical, but temples and shrines of some sort are found in almost every dwarven community. Dwarves revere Moradin as their creator, but individual dwarves honor those deities who hold sway over their vocations; warriors pray to Bahamut or Kord, architects to Erathis, and merchants to Avandra - or even to Tiamat, if a dwarf is consumed by the dwarven taste for wealth.

Dwarves never forget their enemies, either individuals who have wronged them or entire races of monsters who have done ill to their kind. Dwarves harbor a fierce hatred for orcs, which often inhabit the same mountainous areas that dwarves favor and which wreak periodic devastation on dwarf communities. Dwarves also despise giants and titans, because the dwarf race once labored as the giants’ slaves. They feel a mixture of pity and disgust toward those corrupted dwarves who still have not freed themselves from the giants’ yoke - azers and galeb duhrs among them.

To a dwarf, it is a gift and a mark of deep respect to stand beside an ally in battle, and a sign of deepest loyalty to shield that ally from enemy attack. Dwarven legends honor many heroes who gave their lives to save their clans or their friends.

Dwarf Characteristics: Acquisitive, brave, hardworking, loyal, organized, stern, stubborn, tenacious, vengeful

Male Names: Adrik, Baern, Berend, Darrak, Eberk, Fargrim, Gardain, Harbek, Kildrak, Morgran, Orsik, Rangrim, Thoradin, Thorfin, Tordek, Travok, Vondal

Female Names: Artin, Bardryn, Diesa, Eldeth, Falkrunn, Gurdis, Helja, Kathra, Kristryd, Mardred, Riswynn, Torbera, Vistra​

Whatever one wants to say about the comparison of these two rulebooks, "VCR manual" vs "story" is not apt.
 

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Gygax's AD&D states very plainly how it is meant to be played - the PHB states it briefly on p 18, where Character Classes are explained, and then there is a more elaborated 3 column explanation beginning on p 107, under the heading "Successful Adventures". It is reinforced by the action resolution mechanics, which govern dealing with architecture (listening at doors, opening doors, finding hidden doors, mapping, all the architecture-related tricks), with wargame-style travelling through "dungeons" and through wilderness hexes (movement rates and encounter tables), and with encounters (with an orientation towards encounters being with hitherto-unknown beings, with violence an ever-present threat).

As started to happen straight away, though, and as the DL modules made clear in a commercial/publication sense, there was a demand for using some of these elements in a type of game that is quite different from the one Gygax prescribes. The GM's vision of "the story", and some general colour or descriptive ideas coming from PC build, take the place of more formal resolution mechanics.

4e is not particularly well-suited to that sort of RPGing: it is very demanding on the player side to build a PC and thereby generate that general colour or description; its formal resolution mechanics are there in plain sight; and when they are actually used, they give the GM fewer levers of control over how things work out in play.

So I think the issue with 4e's popularity is not that it assumes that everyone plays the same way, but rather that there is a way of playing that is predominant, and 4e is not a very good fit for it.

The 4e books are laden with story. I posted some examples upthread. Here's a comparison between the AD&D PHB and the 4e PHB when it comes to Dwarves (purely mechanical information has been elided):

AD&D
The race of dwarves typically dwells in hilly or mountainous regions. . . . As player characters, both dwarves and their cousins the "mountain dwarves" can be considered. . . .​
Because of their very nature, dwarves are non-magical and do not ever use magical spells. However, this nature gives them a bonus with regard to their saving throws . . . against attacks by magic wands, staves, rods and spells. . . .​
Similarly, dwarves have exceptional constitutional strength with regard to toxic substances, ingested or injected. . . .​
All dwarves are able to speak . . . dwarven, gnome, goblin, kobold, and orcish; in addition, dwarven characters are able to speak the "common tongue" of all humankind. . . .​
Dwarves are able to see radiation in the infra-red spectrum, so they can see up to 60' in the dark noting varying degrees of heat radiation. . . .​
Dwarves are miners of great skill. . . .​
In melee combat . . . dwarves add 1 to their dice rolls to hit opponents who are half-orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, or orcs. When being attacked by ogres, trolls, ogre magi, giants, and/or titans, dwarves subtract 4 from their opponents' "to hit" dice rolls because of the dwarves' small size and combat ability against these much bigger creatures. . . .​
dwarven characters get a bonus of 1 added to their initial constitution ability, and a penalty of 1 on their charisma score due to racial characteristics. It is very important to note the actual charisma score prior to racial adjustment, however, for dwarven characters do not suffer charisma penalties, nor are they limited to a 16 charisma maximum with regard to their own race.​

4e D&D
Masters of stone and iron, dauntless and unyielding in the face of adversity . . .​
Cast Iron Stomach . . . Dwarven Resilience . . . Stand Your Ground . . .​
Carved from the bedrock of the universe, dwarves endured an age of servitude to giants before winning their freedom. Their mighty mountain fortress-cities testify to the power of their ancient empires. Even those who live in human cities are counted among the staunchest defenders against the darkness that threatens to engulf the world.​
Play a dwarf if you want . . .​
*to be tough, gruff, and strong as bedrock.​
*to bring glory to your ancestors or serve as your god’s right hand.​
*to be able to take as much punishment as you dish out. . ..​
Dwarves average about 4½ feet in height and are very broad, weighing as much as an adult human. Dwarves have the same variety of skin, eye, and hair colors as humans, although dwarf skin is sometimes gray or sandstone red and red hair is more common among them. Male dwarves are often bald and braid their long beards into elaborate patterns. Female dwarves braid their hair to show clan and ancestry. Dwarven attire and equipment, including weapons and shields, are decorated with bold geometric shapes, natural gems, and ancestral faces.​
Although they reach physical maturity at roughly the same age as humans, dwarves age more slowly and remain vigorous well past 150 years of age, often living to see 200. . . .​
Proudly proclaiming they were made from the earth itself, dwarves share many qualities with the rock they love. They are strong, hardy, and dependable. They value their ancestral traditions, which they preserve through the ages as fiercely as they defend the carved structures of their mountain homes.​
Dwarves believe in the importance of clan ties and ancestry. They deeply respect their elders, and they honor long-dead clan founders and ancestral heroes. They place great value on wisdom and the experience of years, and most are polite to elders of any race.​
More so than most other races, dwarves seek guidance and protection from the gods. They look to the divine for strength, hope, and inspiration, or they seek to propitiate cruel or destructive gods. Individual dwarves might be impious or openly heretical, but temples and shrines of some sort are found in almost every dwarven community. Dwarves revere Moradin as their creator, but individual dwarves honor those deities who hold sway over their vocations; warriors pray to Bahamut or Kord, architects to Erathis, and merchants to Avandra - or even to Tiamat, if a dwarf is consumed by the dwarven taste for wealth.​
Dwarves never forget their enemies, either individuals who have wronged them or entire races of monsters who have done ill to their kind. Dwarves harbor a fierce hatred for orcs, which often inhabit the same mountainous areas that dwarves favor and which wreak periodic devastation on dwarf communities. Dwarves also despise giants and titans, because the dwarf race once labored as the giants’ slaves. They feel a mixture of pity and disgust toward those corrupted dwarves who still have not freed themselves from the giants’ yoke - azers and galeb duhrs among them.​
To a dwarf, it is a gift and a mark of deep respect to stand beside an ally in battle, and a sign of deepest loyalty to shield that ally from enemy attack. Dwarven legends honor many heroes who gave their lives to save their clans or their friends.​
Dwarf Characteristics: Acquisitive, brave, hardworking, loyal, organized, stern, stubborn, tenacious, vengeful​
Male Names: Adrik, Baern, Berend, Darrak, Eberk, Fargrim, Gardain, Harbek, Kildrak, Morgran, Orsik, Rangrim, Thoradin, Thorfin, Tordek, Travok, Vondal​
Female Names: Artin, Bardryn, Diesa, Eldeth, Falkrunn, Gurdis, Helja, Kathra, Kristryd, Mardred, Riswynn, Torbera, Vistra​

Whatever one wants to say about the comparison of these two rulebooks, "VCR manual" vs "story" is not apt.

Try reading the powers section. It's like the 3.5 spell compendium. 100 odd pages of it iirc.

You know the core feature if 4th ed that also gets dumped on the most.

"4E is an MMO" then you have a heap of nit picking over it. What they're really saying is recharging encounter powers and they don't like it not buying it.

It's also the MM. 1E fiend folio the Drow get a two page wroite up.

No one's claiming it doesn't exist its very obvious side by side though.
 

Try reading the powers section. It's like the 3.5 spell compendium. 100 odd pages of it iirc.
I've read it. It's highly comparable to the 60-odd pages of spell descriptions in Gygax's AD&D: it sets out character abilities in technical game terms.

It's also the MM. 1E fiend folio the Drow get a two page wroite up.
I posted a whole lot of MM comparisons just upthread.

Here are Drow, from the AD&D FF and the 4e MM (purely mechanical information has been elided):

AD&D
Ages past, when the elvenfolk were but new to the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord and those of better disposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel. However constant warfare between the two divisions of elven kind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorious, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands under the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underworld. Here, in lightless caverns and endless warrens of twisting passages and caves hung with icicles of stone, the dark elvenfolk - the drow - found both refuge and comfort. Over the centuries they grew strong once again and schooled themselves in arcane arts. And though they were strong enough to face and perhaps defeat their former brethren in battle, the drow no longer desired to walk upon the green lands under the sun and stars. They no longer desired a life in the upper world, being content with the gloomy fairyland beneath the earth that they had made their own. Yet they neither forgave nor forgot, and even now, above all else, they bear enmity for all of their distant kin - elves and faeries - who drove them down beneath the earth and now dwell in the meadows and dells of the bright world. Though they are seldom if ever seen by any human or demi-human, the drow still persist, occasionally entering lower dungeon levels and consorting with other creatures in order to work out their schemes and inflict revenge upon those who inhabit the world above.

Regardless of the number of drow appearing, there will always be one of higher level than the main body. Drow males are all at least 2nd level fighters - some are as high as 7th level in fighting ability. Males can also be magic-users, some as high as 12th level. Female drow are also at least 2nd level fighters and some have attained 9th level as fighters. Most drow clerics are female, and no upper limit to their level of ability is known; however no male drow cleric has been known to be higher than 4th level.

Drow wear a fine mesh armour of exquisite workmanship. It is made of an alloy of steel containing adamantite. Even the lowliest fighters have in effect +1 chainmail, with higher level drow having +2, +3, +4 or even +5 chainmail. Small bucklers are also used - shields of unusual shape - those drow of greater experience level and importance in drow society having bucklers fashioned of adamantite so as to be +1, +2 or even +3 value.

As will be described later, all drow move silently and with graceful speed, even when wearing their black mesh of armour. Each drow
carries a small amount of personal wealth in a soft leather bag worn around the neck beneath the mail. In addition they arm themselves
with long dagger and short sword of adamantite alloy (+1 to as high as +3 or even +4 borne by noblefolk); 50% or more carry small crossbows which are held in one hand . . . and shoot darts coated with a poison which renders the victim unconscious . . . A few drow also carry adamantite maces (+1 to +5) and/or small javelins (also poisoned with the same substance as the darts) with atlatls . . .

Drow have superior infravision of the 12" range variety and move with silence. The black boots and cloaks that Drow wear are similar to cloaks and boots of elvenkind, except that the wearer has only a 75% chance of surprising enemies or blending into shadows. The material will not cut easily and cloaks have a +6 to saving throws vs. fire attacks; however, any alteration to the cloak has a 75% chance of unraveling the material and making it useless. Drow themselves are only 12%% (1 in 8) likely to be surprised by opponents. Drow are also both intelligent and highly co-ordinated, being able to use either or both hands/arms for attack and defence. They make saving throws versus all forms of magic (clerical included) spells, whether from a caster or from a device, at +2. Drow magic resistance increases by 2% for each level of experience they have gained . . .

Because the drow have dwelled so long in the dark labyrinthine places under the surface of the earth, they dislike bright light. They will not
venture forth into daylight except on the cloudiest, gloomiest days. If within the radius of a light or continual light spell the dark elves are
90% likely to be seen, they lose 2 from their dexterity and all attacks made by them are at -2 on the 'to hit' roll (+2 on saving rolls against
such attacks as applicable). If they are attacking targets inside the radius of light or continual light spells, the bright illumination causes them to suffer a 'to hit' penalty of -1 and the converse +1 on saving throws against such attacks is awarded to the target creatures. If bright light exists, it is 75% likely that drow will retire from the situation because of the illumination, unless such a retreat would imperil one of their number, would otherwise be harmful to their desired ends or would expose some important feature to the light-bringing intruders. In any event, such dimmer light sources as torches, lanterns, magic weapons, fire beetle essence or faerie fire do not adversely affect the performance of the dark elves.

Drow are able to speak the subterranean trade language common to most intelligent dwellers in the underworld, the common tongue, gnome, elven and their own language in addition to the other tongues which their level of intelligence allows. Many know the languages of the various races which speak and dwell underground. All of the dark elves also have a silent language composed of hand movements, and this means of communication is highly sophisticated, being able to convey much information to a considerable degree of complexity. When drow are within 30' of each other, they use facial and body expression, movement and posture; these latter means of communication alone are capable of conveying considerable information, and when coupled with hand/finger movements the whole is as erudite as any spoken speech.

All the dark elves can use the following spells once per day: dancing lights, faerie fire, darkness. Those above 4th level are also able to detect magic, know alignment and levitate once per day. Drow females can, in addition, use the following spells once per day: clairvoyance, detect lie, suggestion, dispel magic. Drow have powers which are the same as those of dwarves with respect to stone and things underground. They also detect hidden or secret doors as elves do.

If more than 10 drow are encountered there will be in addition a male who is a fighter/magic-user of at least 3rd level. If more than 20 are
encountered, there will be a female fighter/cleric of at least 6th level clerical ability in addition to the male fighter/magic-user. If more than 30 drow are encountered, 11-16 will be females, the leader will be a female cleric/fighter of at least 8th/7th ability level, the male fighter/magic-user will be at least of 5th/4th ability level and each will have an assistant of level as previously indicated . . .

Special Note Regarding Drow Treasure: Cloaks, armor, and weapons made by the Drow have special properties, although they do not radiate magic. The items are made in the strange homeland of the Drow: vast underground cities of carven stone and minerals, places of weird and fantastic beauty inundated with unknown radiations which impart the special properties to their items. When these are exposed to direct sunlight, irreversible decay starts and the items will become totally useless in 2-12 days. If protected from sunlight, they will retain their special properties for 31-50 days before becoming normal items; and if exposed to the radiations of the Drow homeland for a period of 1 week out of every 4 weeks, the items could remain potent indefinitely. Drow sleep poison decays instantly in sunlight, and will lose its effectiveness after 60 days in any event after being exposed to air, although unopened packets of the poison will remain potent for up to one year. . . .

Drow are black-skinned and pale-haired. They are slight of build and have long, delicate fingers and toes.

4e D&D
Arrogant and perverse, the drow conspire to subjugate all who don’t revere their Spider Queen, the god Lolth.

Like their kin, the elves, drow were once creatures of the Feywild. However, they followed Lolth down a sinister path and now reside in the Underdark of the world. There they gather in settlements of macabre splendor, lit by luminescent flora and magic, and crawling with spiders. . . .

Drow raid the surface as well as other Underdark societies for plunder and slaves. They conquer the weak and form tenuous alliances with creatures powerful enough to stand against them. . . Drow live in a matriarchal theocracy with rules and customs strictly enforced by the priests of Lolth. Male drow can’t serve as clergy and are often treated as second-class citizens, but even they exercise power based on their station and the opportunities handed to them. . . .

A drow warrior casts darkfire on an enemy, and then attacks the same target with its hand crossbow. It continues to assail foes with crossbow bolts or moves into a flanking position and attacks with its rapier. . . .

This drow [Blademaster] faces its enemies head on, using cloud of darkness to thwart attacks. . . .

The drow priest imparts the benefits of her Lolth’s authority aura while remaining within 5 squares of her drow and spider allies. . . .

Drow patrols often include one or more trained spiders. Drow expeditions, raiding parties, and armies have large numbers of enslaved nondrow among them, as servants and soldiers. Drow also form alliances with devils and demons.

The AD&D information has a lot about the Drow magic items; and a lot about the composition - sex, class and level - of groups of Drow. Beyond that, we learn about their origins in a war with surface High and Grey Elves ("faeries"), about their underground cities ruled by nobles, about their languages (including their silent language), and about their aversion to bright light.

The 4e information does not include the magic items, the silent language, or aversion to light,. The information about preferred weaponry is found in the stat blocks (which include sleep poison and a mace for the priest). A full-colour picture shows us a Drow with black skin and white hair. There is more information about sex hierarchies and the role of Lolth worship (including spiders). The history of the sundering of the Elves is not spelled out in as much detail.

The phrase "the strange homeland of the Drow: vast underground cities of carven stone and minerals, places of weird and fantastic beauty inundated with unknown radiations" is longer than "settlements of macabre splendor, lit by luminescent flora and magic". I don't think it conveys more information. Whether it is more evocative is probably a subjective matter for each reader.
 

See, my feeling with 4e is that it was BUILT TO BE PLAYED from the ground up. No, there wasn't a lot of impractical and useless trivia type lore. There was a TON of "when the PCs take these guys on here's how they operate, who they hang with, who their bosses are likely to be, etc." type of lore.

The same applies to things like FR. The thinking was "how do we make this interesting and engaging to PLAYERS" instead of just wool-gathering sort of endless trivia and whatnot. When they thought through the fundamental conflicts and driving factors arising within the milieu they made them straightforward, interesting, and gameable.

For me at least this was always the beauty of 4e, it is PRIMARILY an RPG at all levels. It consciously aimed to produce the best possible game experience in terms of lore, setting, etc. Very deliberate design!
That just kinda blithely assumes that there weren't an awful lot of people who were enjoying playing FR exactly as it was, and blithely assumes that a large proportion of the prospective 4th ed FR customer base were not, in fact, the pre-4th ed FR customer base.

I understand what they were TRYING to do with 4th ed FR. But (much like the now-legendary pre-4th-ed marketing campaign which systematically went through half of the history of D&D and told you that it wasn't fun) I think it fell into the trap of being developed in a team that was too insular, and too focused on the question 'how should FR have been done from day 1?' rather than 'how should we proceed with FR from the current point'. They wanted to blank-slate the place.

You could have made a more player-focused FR book without blowing the setting up, if you'd wanted to. That's just a matter of emphasis in the book. Less page count devoted to Elminster and co, more to villain organisations, and plot hooks, etc - 5th ed Eberron did this extremely well. Drop a few lines in there explaining how some hand-wavy pantheon metaplot thing means that the Chosen had to largely retire from active adventuring going forward, that's how i would have addressed The Elminster Problem. You didn't NEED to throw the timeline forward a century and turn the pantheon upside down. Vast amounts of the 4th ed book were devoted to deliberately, systematically making it utterly unusable for people who just wanted to keep their existing, pre-Spellplague game going, or even those who wanted to get any use whatsoever out of their old sourcebooks in the new Realms. And it's not like this wholesale lore apocalypse was even creative destruction - in most cases it was just destruction. Entire regions of the place were dropped into the sea or converted to blasted wastelands in an off-handed paragraph or sentence and not replaced with anything useful, or interesting, or gameable.

4e FR may have been a perfectly gameable setting, when viewed in complete and utter isolation from everything that went before it. But for someone who'd been playing the Realms for a while, it was about as far from it as possible. At every turn, it went out of its way to make itself incompatible with everything that had gone before. Regardless of how it was intended, there was no way whatsoever that it was ever going to be embraced by the portion of the player base who liked the Realms as they were. And if you write an FR setting book that's 'intended to be played', surely the the people who like and are playing in the existing FR are worth considering?
 
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The issue I found with the 4e FR, is that wotc were so set on fitting in all of their 4e stuff into the setting. This includes the dawn war, dragonborn (though they existed in 3e, they weren't the same), genasi, Asmodeus as a god etc. That's not to say I think 4e FR is terrible as it had some cool ideas, I absolutely love Airspur and intend to use it in my own setting, and 4e's Dawn War is an epic mythology for the edition which draws upon real world myths of the gods fighting titans and giants, I just don't feel like it needed to be shoehorned into FR. I do wonder how many 4e FR players ended up ignoring the 4e setting info and used an earlier version of FR for their 4e campaigns.
 


The issue I found with the 4e FR, is that wotc were so set on fitting in all of their 4e stuff into the setting. This includes the dawn war, dragonborn (though they existed in 3e, they weren't the same), genasi, Asmodeus as a god etc. That's not to say I think 4e FR is terrible as it had some cool ideas, I absolutely love Airspur and intend to use it in my own setting, and 4e's Dawn War is an epic mythology for the edition which draws upon real world myths of the gods fighting titans and giants, I just don't feel like it needed to be shoehorned into FR. I do wonder how many 4e FR players ended up ignoring the 4e setting info and used an earlier version of FR for their 4e campaigns.

Heh 2E Realms was "realms shattering". They removed assassins.

3.0 frcs was very mild by comparison. Banes back along with Shadovar.
 

Even with all the changes to 4e FR... I ignored everything about it, because what do I care about Forgotten Realms, you cannot fix it enough.

So yeah, not sure who they were making that setting for.

Fair enough FRs not for everyone sane as Ravenloft or Darksun or Dragonlance etc.

I don't expect them to blow up a setting to appeal to ne though I'll just find one I like. Since 4E FR that was Golarion and Midgard. No big deal.
 

The same applies to things like FR. The thinking was "how do we make this interesting and engaging to PLAYERS" instead of just wool-gathering sort of endless trivia and whatnot. When they thought through the fundamental conflicts and driving factors arising within the milieu they made them straightforward, interesting, and gameable.
I think a bunch of WotC people at the time have gone on the record as saying that FR was really popular with novels and video games and sourcebooks and modules, but the lore had become so sprawling that it was becoming a barrier to entry to new fans and an issue for writers for Realms novels and RPG sourcebooks.

The 4e Spellplague/timeline 100 year jump was designed to be a realms shaking event that made things essentially a reboot with simpler stuff, pantheons cut down, more points of light areas, nobody really needs to worry about decades of NPC and detail development because it could be a fresh jumping in point for new stories and new fans/readers/DMs/D&D players/writers with some familiar big picture stuff and touchstones. The three books and done 4e campaign model tied into that as well.

I would have preferred just having some shorter player's guide books or gazetteers for big picture stuff as an entry point for new fans. I personally never really read much FR lore after 3.5's Grand History of the Realms. From 4e on I mostly did not keep up with realms stuff, I got the spellsword from the CB and loved the class, and I now have a couple 4e FR PDFs and a 5e FR module but have not really dived into them. I use some FR material in my homebrew mashup campaign but the AD&D and 3e stuff I have works great for that.
 


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