D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[darjr]

I think that this is immaterial it is all in the eye of the beholder. People that focus on the fluff will focus there regardless of presentation and the mechanically minded will extract the mechanics from any amount of fluff.

Maybe. But I dint think so. One of the complaints I hear from some 4e fans is the “muddled” nature of 5e rules. That it’s harder for them to parse out what is rules and what is fluff.

For me that’s a feature, not a bug.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Maybe. But I dint think so. One of the complaints I hear from some 4e fans is the “muddled” nature of 5e rules. That it’s harder for them to parse out what is rules and what is fluff.

For me that’s a feature, not a bug.

I wonder are they confusing "That is for the DM to decide" with fluff. 4e was pretty clean mechanically by that standard all other editions are pretty muddled.

 

[overgeeked]

Maybe. But I dint think so. One of the complaints I hear from some 4e fans is the “muddled” nature of 5e rules. That it’s harder for them to parse out what is rules and what is fluff.

For me that’s a feature, not a bug.

For me it’s the “natural language” used that’s the problem. I don’t care that fluff exists or that it’s near the rules. I just want the rules to be written as rules, i.e. in stark, explicit, and direct terms with as little ambiguity as possible. The opposite of WotC’s “natural language” approach. Like what interrupts a long rest. Strenuous activity. Okay, what activity is strenuous? It’s up to the referee. That’s great for the referee. But a lot of players hate that because there’s no clear guidelines and it devolves into the community’s favorite new negative buzzwords “mother may I.”

 

[Zardnaar]

Well o had a look at random page on the 3.5 MM3 and 4E MMbooks.

Most of the lore in 4E is bullet point paragraphs involving mechanics lots of stat blocks.

3.5 isn't much better the fluff part is natural language often including an FR or Eberron write up as well.

Neither one compares well to say 2E which includes a decent write up on fluff. 1E was also more fluff dense but not for every monster.

5E leans more towards AD&D.

2E you get a small write up, then society section then ecology section.

3E you get the write up.

4E you get bullet point short write up.

 

[James Gasik]

For me it’s the “natural language” used that’s the problem. I don’t care that fluff exists or that it’s near the rules. I just want the rules to be written as rules, i.e. in stark, explicit, and direct terms with as little ambiguity as possible. The opposite of WotC’s “natural language” approach. Like what interrupts a long rest. Strenuous activity. Okay, what activity is strenuous? It’s up to the referee. That’s great for the referee. But a lot of players hate that because there’s no clear guidelines and it devolves into the community’s favorite new negative buzzwords “mother may I.”

Or Stealth rules that don't contradict themselves and basically are summed up as "however the DM decides Stealth works".

 

[darjr]

For me it’s the “natural language” used that’s the problem. I don’t care that fluff exists or that it’s near the rules. I just want the rules to be written as rules, i.e. in stark, explicit, and direct terms with as little ambiguity as possible. The opposite of WotC’s “natural language” approach. Like what interrupts a long rest. Strenuous activity. Okay, what activity is strenuous? It’s up to the referee. That’s great for the referee. But a lot of players hate that because there’s no clear guidelines and it devolves into the community’s favorite new negative buzzwords “mother may I.”

Nope. Not me. I dint want to play in that game or run it. And I dint seem to have that mother May I problem. I think it helps to be generous to your players and try to be in their head and on thier side. Ya know, being a good GM generally.

Those tight rules seem to me to lead to a game where only the rules really matter and the fluff is secondary or just garnish. Tasteless and bland.

But I realize people’s preferences, histories, capabilities, and style will differ.

 

[Zardnaar]

Nope. Not me. I dint want to play in that game or run it. And I dint seem to have that mother May I problem. I think it helps to be generous to your players and try to be in their head and on thier side. Ya know, being a good GM generally.

Those tight rules seem to me to lead to a game where only the rules really matter and the fluff is secondary or just garnish. Tasteless and bland.

But I realize people’s preferences, histories, capabilities, and style will differ.

Dammit I just had another look at my older stuff. Don't think the 3.0 stuff had been opened in years.

3.0 and 3.5 are very skimpy on the details 4E is even worse. 2E the crunch+art is in the minority.

5E resembles the D&D I fell in love with more than 4E.

Side by side you can really tell the difference.

 

[overgeeked]

Nope. Not me. I dint want to play in that game or run it. And I dint seem to have that mother May I problem. I think it helps to be generous to your players and try to be in their head and on thier side. Ya know, being a good GM generally.

Those tight rules seem to me to lead to a game where only the rules really matter and the fluff is secondary or just garnish. Tasteless and bland.

But I realize people’s preferences, histories, capabilities, and style will differ.

I mean, to each their own, of course. But I cannot imagine wanting to play a game with intentionally murky rules. That is definitely not a feature for me.

 

[pemerton]

Well o had a look at random page on the 3.5 MM3 and 4E MMbooks.

<snip>

Neither one compares well to say 2E which includes a decent write up on fluff.

I've not got any view on 3.5.

But I think what you say comparing AD&D 2nd ed and 4e D&D is just wrong, as per my post 365 upthread.

 

[darjr]

I mean, to each their own, of course. But I cannot imagine wanting to play a game with intentionally murky rules. That is definitely not a feature for me.

There you go though. I never said those things.

I mean yea. To each thier own. But ouch!