D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Zeromaru X]

TBF it has a lot of rules and content for outside combat. The Skill Challenge system is the most developed system any edition has ever had for extended task resolution outside of combat or a single skill check. I think a lot of folks see the big lists of powers and their eyes glaze over a bit, where in other editions that kind of content is mostly confined to the spell lists.

TBH, I'm always gonna be puzzled by 5e downtime rules. Like, people actually need rules to know what their characters do with their free time? I always solved that through roleplaying and rulings (like determining how much the characters spent with their lifestyle, how much the bakery of this player earned, and that stuff).

Skill challenges were a good way to deal with social encounters, though I admit that at first they had problems and they were perfected in the later days of 4e.

I'm not sure a raw number is going to tell you anything significant about success/failure or on what level it succeeded or failed any more than "less than previous edition" will. That's what the rest of the context of "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" is really all about. Less than previous edition AND all this other stuff... and maybe we'll have a better understanding of what the heck happened and how it affected decisions afterward. Because I can tell you that there are a lot of us who have questions about what was going on, so I hope Riggs has some good insider (at the time) sources to offer their perspectives.

At the very least, this will help to solve the "4e sold less, therefore it was a failure" argument.

But 4e does. The one that can be tripped.

Have you flipped up a snail? It doesn't matter if the snail can stick to the walls, if you flipped it, the snail will need a time to reaccommodate... I consider the "tripping the cube" the same. After all, there should be a "main" face in the cube...

 

[darjr]

Have you flipped up a snail? It doesn't matter if the snail can stick to the walls, if you flipped it, the snail will need a time to reaccommodate... I consider the "tripping the cube" the same. After all, there should be a "main" face in the cube...

No, thanks. There were enough changes in 4e. A cube being like a snail isn’t one I want.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

No, thanks. There were enough changes in 4e. A cube being like a snail isn’t one I want.

Plus, there's a difference between a 10' gelatinous cube (which means 10'x10'x10') that is ... gelatinous throughout ... and a snail.

 

[Zeromaru X]

No, thanks. There were enough changes in 4e. A cube being like a snail isn’t one I want.

I guess we can add "old players' strongly held preconceptions" to the things that went "wrong" with 4e. Oh, wait, he already addressed this with the magic missile thing...

On topic, I already knew about 4e many "early versions" from the preview books. I even remember Mearls saying that Essentials was actually one of those early versions.

The books also mention many groups working on D&D, though obviously the struggle between them is something that wasn't included in the books...

 

[darjr]

I guess we can add "old players' strongly held preconceptions" to the things that went "wrong" with 4e. Oh, wait, he already addressed this with the magic missile thing...

On topic, I already knew about 4e many "early versions" from the preview books. I even remember Mearls saying that Essentials was actually one of those early versions.

The books also mention many groups working on D&D, though obviously the struggle between them is something that wasn't included in the books...

Was it supposed to be D&D? I think it was. So be D&D?

Yea, I know I’m old.

 

[payn]

Was it supposed to be D&D? I think it was. So be D&D?

Yea, I know I’m old.

Cmon get with the snail revolution!

 

[Zeromaru X]

Plus, there's a difference between a 10' gelatinous cube (which means 10'x10'x10') that is ... gelatinous throughout ... and a snail.

This was never an issue for me. I don't know, because I was new to D&D back in the day, and didn't had any preconceived ideas of how things should work, and was really aware that this is a game. If my group was going to nitpick about tripping a gelatinous cube (a fantastic creature from magicland), then we should have to complain about dragons, elves, magic, etc...

So, my logical fix was to think that whatever equivalent to the "sensory organs" of the cube were reaccommodated during the tripping, and the cube needed a time to reorganize his body to sense the adventurers again. It's a fantasy creature, after all. Not something real. It doesn't need to follow the logic of our real world.

Yea, I know I’m old

We are, my friend. We are...

 

[darjr]

Cmon get with the snail revolution!

Apologies I’m a little slow…..

 

[James Gasik]

They do have a climb speed

Do they? I remember 2e said: "a Gelatinous Cube cannot climb the walls or cling to the ceiling in order to access the mold so high up, so it is forced to grow up tall, about 10-feet, so it can feast on the mold found up there. Also, any snails who think they can outrun the cube or attempt to escape its insatiable hunger."

The 4e version just has a regular speed, and the 5e version...

Or do you mean that nothing prevents them from climbing normally?

 

[James Gasik]

But 4e does. The one that can be tripped.

And with 4e, it’s all part of a tightly weaved whole. Being able to trip it is important and so is that climb speed. It’s important for the interaction of the rules and it’s important for some character builds. Forget it in play and you’re possibly cheating a player out of their fun. Something they may have worked hard to choose the right mix of powers and feats.

While the latter part of the above is true to some extent in 5e it isn’t nearly as bad, by a lot. On top of which the cube movement and trippiness is more like it’s always been. And in my book more like what is expected.

And finally I dint need to go to a large effort to justify it in the fiction in 5e like it seems some need to in 4e.

And that to me is the key downfall of 4e. This incongruity with the in game fiction in service to the tightness of the rules is a constant and I got rather tired of it.

Odd, the stat block I have says:

Level 5 Elite Brute
Large natural beast (blind, ooze) / XP 400
Initiative +4 / Senses Perception +3; tremorsense 5
HP 152; Bloodied 76
AC 18; Fortitude 18, Reflex 16, Will 15
Immune gaze; Resist 10 acid
Saving Throws +2
Speed 3; also see engulf
Action Points 1
Slam (standard; at will) +10 vs. Fortitude; 1d6+2 damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends).
Engulf (standard; at will) ✦ Acid
The gelatinous cube attacks one or two Medium or smaller targets; +8 vs Reflex (automatically hits and immobilized creature). On a hit, the target is grabbed and pulled into the cube’s space; the target is dazed and takes ongoing 10 acid damage until it escapes the grab. A creature that escapes the cube shifts to a square of it choosing adjacent to the cube. The cube can move normally while creatures are engulfed within it.
Translucent A gelatinous cube is invisible until seen (Perception DC 25) or until it attacks. Creatures that fail to notice the gelatinous cube might walk into it, automatically becoming engulfed.
Alignment Unaligned / Languages -
Skills Stealth
Str 14 (+4) Dex 14 (+4) Wis 13 (+3) Con 16 (+5) Int 1 (-3) Cha 1 (-3)