D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

Remember that 4e was designed in response to pressure from Hasbro to make D&D into one of their key brands (I don't remember the exact term) which would require an order of magnitude more sales.

That's why they had such a licence to 'move quickly and break things' - an incremental improvement over previous editions and targeting the same (or adjacent) player base was never going to be enough. They had to aim high and hope for the best. I can see how isome of your current base or trading partners aren't keen that might actually be a sign that you're succeeding in that reinvention and opening up a whole new (perhaps bigger) audience.
 

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Franchise Brands, maybe?

Edit: Core Brands. See link for Ryan Dancey providing the details:

 
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I disagree, obviously. It speeds up combat in a way that has much more to do with drama than it does with how a battle would go in any realistic way.
I don't get this. Because hit points are a purely artificial thing, a game device for determining how an imaginary conflict unfolds, how is it unrealistic to decree that some hit points are lost every round? I mean, in real life, every 6 seconds, or 10 seconds, or 60 seconds (I don't know how long Kevin Crawfords's rounds are) a conflict comes closer to its end. So a mechanic that helps bring this about seems like it is producing realistic fiction!
 

I don't get this. Because hit points are a purely artificial thing, a game device for determining how an imaginary conflict unfolds, how is it unrealistic to decree that some hit points are lost every round? I mean, in real life, every 6 seconds, or 10 seconds, or 60 seconds (I don't know how long Kevin Crawfords's rounds are) a conflict comes closer to its end. So a mechanic that helps bring this about seems like it is producing realistic fiction!
I am officially tired of the, "but hit points!" defense. The existence of the hit point mechanic does not mean that no argument for increased verisimilitude holds water.
 

It was obvious back in 2008 that 4e was (and would continue to be) "divisive", in the sense that there were many people who enjoyed 3E D&D and would not enjoy 4e D&D. I saw that in threads here about encounter powers, and skill challenges, as these were previewed by WotC.

But I don't enjoy a resolution technique doesn't entail the fiction of those using that that technique is absurd or incoherent. Likewise when I ignored the rules and used rules and assumptions from other RPGs, this RPG didn't work isn't - for me - a very compelling basis for arguing that the RPG in question can't work.

Which is why repeated claims that 4e's mechanics can't work, or can't produce coherent fiction, or are "video-gamey" or "gamist", drive me bonkers!

I mean, at their core 4e's combat mechanics are no different from Gygax's account of hp in his DMG - they just take that design through to its logical conclusion. And the departures from AD&D - the uniform power suite, skill challenges, and the approach to PC level and treasure gain - are obviously based on well-known developments in RPG design that date back (at least) to Greg Stafford's Prince Valiant in 1989. Yet this thread has been like a "greatest hits" - prone oozes, damage on a miss, skill challenges, statting PCs and NPCs differently.

People play what they like. From 1990 on I played much less AD&D than Rolemaster, because I discovered a RPG system that I much preferred. I don't play 5e D&D because it holds zero interest for me. But I don't feel like the historical record on 5e needs to include a footnote that it was not to pemerton's tastes.
 

Then they used the wrong term, and that I take the word at its meaning ain't my problem.

"Knock over" in reality is a different action than "trip", requiring different movements and different abilities (strength and size instead of dexterity), and thus if it's to be mechanically represented it needs its own mechanics (I'd batch them in with "push" and similar). Sticking my foot out and tripping someone requires dexterity and a bit of stealth, while bodychecking someone to the ground just takes sheer brute force and bulk.

"Flip" or "throw" would be in the purview of Monks and others trained in such things (though a Monk ain't gonna judo-throw a Gelatinous Cube no matter how hard she tries!). "Cause to stumble" is broader and can cover many things, including telekinesing a flagstone up off the path while hiding in the bushes.

All of these could have been batched together into a "stagger" mechanic, under which would be listed examples of all the above except flip or throw, which are under a different category of martial moves. Whether the victim was knocked prone would be rolled for separately.
Its been a while since I was caught up in this thread but this stuck out to me.

I just wanted to clarify that while 4e has a prone condition and a number of powers that knock an opponent prone, it does not have a mechanically defined trip game mechanic.

The 4e FAQ was discussing whether a cube can be knocked prone. The blogger was using trip as his 4e example, but 4e does not itself use trip.

"Can a gelatinous cube be knocked prone? In situations like this, DMs are encouraged to change the flavor of what is happening without changing the actual rules governing the situation. For example, the ooze could be so disoriented by the blow that it suffers the same disadvantages as if it had been knocked prone until it spends a move action to stand up effectively shaking off the condition"

The term trip is used twice in the 4e PH, but only narratively.

In a level 13 Fighter power the flavor text description is "You trip your enemies, knocking them back. As they recover, you shift to a more advantageous position."

Mechanically this attack hits them for damage and pushes them and the fighter follows up with movement to follow them, more push and movement with a spear type weapon. No knocking them down prone at all though.

There is also a level 13 rogue attack power of unbalancing attack.

"Ducking and weaving, you land a decisive blow that staggers your foe and sets it up for a tripping attack."

"Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target cannot shift until the end of your next turn. If the target provokes an opportunity attack from you before the start of your next turn, you gain a bonus to the attack roll and damage roll with the opportunity attack equal to your Strength modifier, and you knock the target prone on a hit."

The narrative parts are only in the power section labelled flavor text and the explanation of powers explicitly says these are examples and can be narratively changed by the player.

"A power’s flavor text helps you understand what happens when you use a power and how you might describe it when you use it. You can alter this description as you like, to fit your own idea of what your power looks like."
 


Its been a while since I was caught up in this thread but this stuck out to me.

I just wanted to clarify that while 4e has a prone condition and a number of powers that knock an opponent prone, it does not have a mechanically defined trip game mechanic.
Yes. As I posted some hundreds of posts upthread:
There's no trip ability as such in 4e that I recall. There are various powers that knock creatures prone, but at low levels I don't think it's common to be able to knock prone at will.

The narrative parts are only in the power section labelled flavor text and the explanation of powers explicitly says these are examples and can be narratively changed by the player.
This too!
 

Yes. As I posted some hundreds of posts upthread:


This too!

Prone

“This condition can affect limbless creatures, such as fish and snakes, as well as amorphous creatures, such as oozes. When such a creature falls prone, imagine it is writhing or unsteady, rather than literally lying down.”

Pretty straight-forward. Any creature that has any kind of sensory perception system and proprioception can have that system foiled. Having such systems be unassailable would actually be the unrealistic thing!
 

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