Mod Note:
There’s a lot of opinion in this quotation masquerading as fact, with a heaping dose of judgement on top.
How about we not use rhetorical flourishes that lean towards insulting? Thanks!
D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
- Thread starter Alzrius
- Start date
There’s a lot of opinion in this quotation masquerading as fact, with a heaping dose of judgement on top.
How about we not use rhetorical flourishes that lean towards insulting? Thanks!
Aldarc
Legend
IMHO, it does a huge disservice to discussion when you (i.e., general 'you') start treating sides in terms of people involved and the grudges you hold against them about other topics rather than the topics that are actually being discussed. That leads to other threads devolving into unwelcomed grudge matches.
Divine2021
Hero
I’m not going to read all the nearly 1200 comments, have we decided that 4e was good or have we decided it was bad? Or have we just insulted each other for nigh a thousand comments for holding different opinions?
BigZebra
Adventurer
It has been decided it is mostly good - but with some issues (most of which got ironed out late in the version).
The more I keep reading 4e for myself the more I think its only real issue is that it existed before its audience could get into TTRPGs.
Say what you will about the cultural problems around it (nuking FR lore, the license nuking, etc), but I liken it to being something that straddled the same kind of line I think people around my age tend to straddle.
I like to describe that line as growing up on both sides of 9/11. Or, less crass, both sides of the iPhone.
On the one hand, I grew up in an era where technology required effort and its rewards developed a feedback loop for learning, even if you had no real teachers other than what you could figure out how to search for on the internet. In terms of gaming, this era leads down a similar path. Morrowind was one of the first games I ever played, and the first game even partially resembling DND i had ever interacted with. And its a game thats well known for requiring some effort to play for great reward.
But, on the other, I also grew up in an era where things became cleaner, easier, faster. The rigmarole was cut, and fun was easy to have and in the best examples, skill wasn't washed away.
And I think these experiences are what came to form my preferences, which often go for games that are exceptionally deep but easy to dink around in. Full fledged simulators like DCS World or (to some degree) Kerbal Space Program are my bread and butter, and even in the RPG space, I find myself desiring games that don't make it a matter of trading off depth for accessibility. Its why I still like to come back to Runescape every now and again (when Im up for more grinding), and why when I play something like Skyrim, I find myself burning out just trying to mod it to where I want it before Ive even played it for 5 minutes.
And these in turn all influenced my tabletop preferences. I find myself appreciating the grittier nature of older games and the more high-octane fun generation of newer games, and I inevitably always gravitate towards the best marriage of both.
My impression of 4e is that its a game that fits that bill (though can still be better), and I don't think its a surprise my own game has developed along these lines.
Say what you will about the cultural problems around it (nuking FR lore, the license nuking, etc), but I liken it to being something that straddled the same kind of line I think people around my age tend to straddle.
I like to describe that line as growing up on both sides of 9/11. Or, less crass, both sides of the iPhone.
On the one hand, I grew up in an era where technology required effort and its rewards developed a feedback loop for learning, even if you had no real teachers other than what you could figure out how to search for on the internet. In terms of gaming, this era leads down a similar path. Morrowind was one of the first games I ever played, and the first game even partially resembling DND i had ever interacted with. And its a game thats well known for requiring some effort to play for great reward.
But, on the other, I also grew up in an era where things became cleaner, easier, faster. The rigmarole was cut, and fun was easy to have and in the best examples, skill wasn't washed away.
And I think these experiences are what came to form my preferences, which often go for games that are exceptionally deep but easy to dink around in. Full fledged simulators like DCS World or (to some degree) Kerbal Space Program are my bread and butter, and even in the RPG space, I find myself desiring games that don't make it a matter of trading off depth for accessibility. Its why I still like to come back to Runescape every now and again (when Im up for more grinding), and why when I play something like Skyrim, I find myself burning out just trying to mod it to where I want it before Ive even played it for 5 minutes.
And these in turn all influenced my tabletop preferences. I find myself appreciating the grittier nature of older games and the more high-octane fun generation of newer games, and I inevitably always gravitate towards the best marriage of both.
My impression of 4e is that its a game that fits that bill (though can still be better), and I don't think its a surprise my own game has developed along these lines.
darjr
I crit!
I dunno. It gets a ton of hype from MCDM, one of the largest sources of fun promotion of RPG things out there besides WotC themselves or GenCon. And there were 23 tickets sold at GenCon. Not tables, tickets, individual seats.
Maybe that has more to do with availability but I'd think a newer generation would embrace PDF and POD more and the original character builder is still out there, no idea if it's still getting maintained but I'd bet it is and works on current hardware/OS.
darjr
I crit!
Here is a discussion of the 4e Character Builder. Looks like it may still work.
Old Fezziwig
Thanks for the sour persimmons, cousin.
It does still work. I downloaded the offline version to my computer a couple weeks ago and have been building characters with it. I haven't tried to add any houserules or such yet, however.
