D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

Why we don't have an Arms and Equipment guide full of neat gear you can stuff your masterwork backpacks with is more than a little strange. Pathfinder 1e had a wonderfully stuffed gear list, with great things like survival gear, alchemical items, masterwork comestibles that provide benefits for eating them, and even sundries to make life a little easier, like a collapsible bathtub or a mithral waffle iron (mithral, like teflon, is non-stick!).

D&D used to have a history of such things, like Aurora's Whole Realms catalogue, the various Arms & Equipments, and so on. But WotC has decided to barely touch on expanding the lists of weapons and armor or adventuring gear.
 

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There is a medium 1.5 pages and 50 pages of combat rules that would have sold better than Spelljammer AAG.

5e provides the minimum. Kickbacker campaigns provide the maximum.
No one is providing the middle.

Note: I bought neither.
that is why I said there probably is a sweet spot. Sounds like WotC missed that. I do not like SJ, so do not have either as well
 


That's the issue. 5e created a problem but didn't teach the solution. 5e relied on your DM having the experience to create the solution.

That's because D&D is a "high trust" game. Aren't people glad we're free of the "Tryanny of Fun" WOTC tried to impose on us so long ago?

Any "solution" WOTC could provide would only end up excluding certain playstyles from D&D.
 


And this doesn't apply to mealtimes and bathroom breaks and clothes-washing and all the other bazillion tedious chores of everyday existence because...?

If it's all or nothing, can I assume your not wanting versimilitude as a standard for what isn't specified by the rules means my by the book 5e human fighter can eat through chains, claw through an oaken door with his finger nails, slide through cracks like an amoeba, sense magnetic north when underground, hang in mid air by flapping his arms (assuming I wasn't already falling), not fill his prison cell with waste and come out smelling like a rose if he decides not to escape, and hear and make hypersonic sounds like a bat?
 

I'd argue that the ship combat rules should be more than "quick and dirty" in the "Saling Magic Ships" setting.
Fair enough. But, there's a difference between "I don't like these rules and wish they had more complex ones" and "This product is unplayable because it lacks key mechanics". The Spelljammer ship rules are essentially exactly the same as the Ghosts of Saltmarsh ones. Since nobody every claims that GoS lacks key mechanics, I don't think it's particularly fair or useful to claim that Spelljammer does lack them.

Again, as someone who has stuggled to do ship combat in D&D for three or four editions now, I can see the appeal of the Spelljammer rules. Players have absolutely zero interest in the level of detail that I want. It really is a problem.
 

...In older editions you had stuff to do with your gold and had less ability to rest-nova a cave of goblins down.

That's the issue. 5e created a problem but didn't teach the solution. 5e relied on your DM having the experience to create the solution.
Let's go to the 3E Rules, then. What exactly do you think was in the PHB and DMG that gave PCs something to do with their gold?

In all editions you can buy items - there were just fairly arbitrary specific prices in 4E tand earlier editions hat resulted in very powerful items being cheaper than much less powerful items. You could, for example, in 3E buy a ring that allows you to 100% of the time counterspell a specific spell (which you can change) for 4K gold ... or buy a pair of rings that can, essentially warding bond for 50K GP. You had certain items every PC was buying because tghey were undercosted ... but the DMG did specify a price and a lot of DMs didn't feel right ignoring it.

But what else did they have rules for in terms of spending money in the DMG and PHB for 3E that high level adventurers would utilize?

And what about 3E prevented the rest-nova? We lacked the short rest mechanic, the concentration mechanic, and metamagic was not restricted to sorcerers. As a result, you often saw higher level spellcasters casting a dozen spells before combat, multiple spells per round during combat, and burning up all their spells early and often. They also had less spells per level until about 6th to 8th level. So what was giving them more endurance to avoid the rest-nova we see in 5E?

Or did we want to focus on 4E? Where in the 4E rules do you find things to do other than buy magic items? They had rituals which you could pay money to master (if you had the feature/feat). That was something for PCs to contribute to - but is it that different than hiring a spellcaster that can cast the spells in other editions?

4E also had the rest nova issue as EVERY PC had their strongest abilities recharge on a full rest. A common discussion in 4E, in many games, was, "When do we rest so that we can have our dailies for the big bad?" The entire edition was built to feel more like a video game than all the other editions ... and that mentality pushed people to treat it like a video game and less like a storytelling game. Thus, more "I think we need to go somewhere and camp because I just used my daily."

A lot of this "earlier editions had X" are a result of rose colored glasses. AD&D had a lot of interesting stuff that turned adventurers into Lords, but most of that was gone by 3E.
 

There probably is a sweet spot somewhere, if you want a lot more, maybe this is for you


I don't think I want 250 or so pages on ship combat, that might be worse than 20 ;)
Heh. I currently have no less than seven different ship combat systems sitting on my hard drive right now. Might saunter down for an eighth. :D
Sounds cool.

However it proves my point. Someone else is filling the void. A void left because 5e didn't go far enough.
There is a medium 1.5 pages and 50 pages of combat rules that would have sold better than Spelljammer AAG.

5e provides the minimum. Kickbacker campaigns provide the maximum.
No one is providing the middle.

Note: I bought neither.
Sold better? Spelljammer is like the best selling 5e product after the core right now. How much better do you think it could sell?

And no one is providing the middle? Again, I point you to DM's Guild. There are half a dozen good ship combat systems there from purely narrative to nice and crunchy. WotC provided the system that players wanted (note, players, not DM's) because it's quick, fun and lets them get to play their characters rather than turn their session into a tabletop wargame.

This gets back to my point about the biggest problem in 5e - the complete lack of interest by fans in anything that doesn't have the WotC seal of approval. For example:

Why we don't have an Arms and Equipment guide full of neat gear you can stuff your masterwork backpacks with is more than a little strange. Pathfinder 1e had a wonderfully stuffed gear list, with great things like survival gear, alchemical items, masterwork comestibles that provide benefits for eating them, and even sundries to make life a little easier, like a collapsible bathtub or a mithral waffle iron (mithral, like teflon, is non-stick!).

D&D used to have a history of such things, like Aurora's Whole Realms catalogue, the various Arms & Equipments, and so on. But WotC has decided to barely touch on expanding the lists of weapons and armor or adventuring gear.
Do you have any idea how many arms and equipment guides there are on DM's Guild for 5e? Lessee, I added 5e, equipment, and searched for mundane. Out of the list of hundreds of entries, I spy this one:


500 items, professional quality, nice art. Ten bucks.

Why on earth do you need WotC to do this?
 

But what else did they have rules for in terms of spending money in the DMG and PHB for 3E that high level adventurers would utilize?

The 5.0 wording on magic items being for sale is a lot more encouraging than I remembered it being.

Was crafting items (with the specific rules and costs for how to) a big thing in some 3/3.5/PF games?

The 3e prices for hirelings don't feel like they'll burn through much...
Alchemist 1g/day
Maid 1sp/day
Mercenary Leader 6sp/day
Sage 2gp+/day

The "Expanded Equipment List" in the 3e DMG includes...
Warship 25,000 gp
Castle 500,000 gp
Huge CAstle 1,000,000 gp
Moat with bridge 50,000 gp
... but that doesn't feel nearly as exciting as the level of detail in 1e (where you attracted followers in many cases and needed somewhere to stash them).
 

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