D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

Perhaps he simply doesn't care for narrative play. There's no point to it for him. Nothing wrong with that.
There would be nothing wrong with that coming from, say you, but there is something hugely wrong with it coming from the chief product developer for a product which is designed to cater to that exact audience's needs! It is in fact, complete naughty word. But I said all this in about 2011 when Mike first opened his mouth on the subject, he should never have been put in charge of a product which he didn't believe in. THAT was the mistake, you NEVER EVER do that in business!
 

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No rules lawyers in FKR, sure, but how many "imagination lawyers" do you see; as in players who dispute the shared fiction?

As in:
Player: "I'm by the door while people search."
GM: "There's a nasty monster coming through the door."
Player: "Oh, I'm by the window then!"
GM: "You said you were by the door."
<cue argument>

'Cause this would be my concern with how games like that might go. I mean, hell, I already see enough of it in games where there's rules and minis etc. to fall back on.
Yeah, this was a genuine issue back in the days of old school play particularly. I mean, we just called such players 'dicks' and doubled, tripled, and quadrupled down on the force of 'rule 0'. It wasn't a successful strategy, though obviously if you kicked enough people out of your game, you eventually ended up with a residual group of those who would obey your rulings! That was a common sight back in the day, similar to what certain posters here today evince, though I won't name them for fear of summoning their presence, lol.
 


There would be nothing wrong with that coming from, say you, but there is something hugely wrong with it coming from the chief product developer for a product which is designed to cater to that exact audience's needs! It is in fact, complete naughty word. But I said all this in about 2011 when Mike first opened his mouth on the subject, he should never have been put in charge of a product which he didn't believe in. THAT was the mistake, you NEVER EVER do that in business!
It might have been a bad business decision, but I would rather our designers be honest about their own preferences than insist they lie to cover the company line (and treasury).
 

None that I’ve seen. It’s never happened in an FKR game I’ve played in or ran.

If it were to pop up, it would likely be handled the same way we handle it in other games. The referee tells the player to stop being a jackass and we move on. The player keeps being a jackass and they don’t get to play anymore.
Yeah, I doubt it would, because TODAY anyone participating in a specifically 'FKR' game is not likely to be unaware of how to play successfully, they have been doing this long enough to have developed extremely specific tastes.
 


There would be nothing wrong with that coming from, say you, but there is something hugely wrong with it coming from the chief product developer for a product which is designed to cater to that exact audience's needs! It is in fact, complete naughty word. But I said all this in about 2011 when Mike first opened his mouth on the subject, he should never have been put in charge of a product which he didn't believe in. THAT was the mistake, you NEVER EVER do that in business!

Was 4e designed to cater to narrative play?
 

Mike knows about narrative play. And he did believe in 4th edition .

The fact you need to try and discredit him to prove your point sinks your argument.

People find it necessary to quote him after 4e had already been internally discontinued.

As I wrote before, and as I'm sure Ben Riggs will cover, 4e was already dead internally when Essentials was released in 2010.

They announced D&D Next in January 2012; it's not like that came out of thin air.
 


People find it necessary to quote him after 4e had already been internally discontinued.

As I wrote before, and as I'm sure Ben Riggs will cover, 4e was already dead internally when Essentials was released in 2010.

They announced D&D Next in January 2012; it's not like that came out of thin air.
Like I told Ben in his talk. He’s going to catch a lot of heat from folks who are invested. He seems prepared. Willing almost. He’s determined to get the facts out.
 

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