D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Mannahnin]

* Give or take a point – One of the differences between 1e and 2e was that 1e had attack tables for each class where you'd cross-reference level with the target's AC to get the number you need to roll to hit, while 2e used a mathematical formula to generate a THAC0 value. The two mostly worked out the same, but the fighter attack table advanced 2 points per 2 levels, while the THAC0 formula advanced 1 point per level. Monster THAC0 remained at 2/2 in 2e, probably to maintain continuity with old monster descriptions.

And the 1e AD&D attack tables contained a note that as an optional rule you could "smooth" the progression of Fighter attacks to be a 1pt improvement per level instead of 2 points every two levels. And of course this was itself a smoothing of the progression from OD&D and the Basic line, where the Fighter's attack progression jumped three points at 4th level.

In an amusing historical revelation, it turns out that the original concept was a 5% (1pt) improvement every level of advancement, but that they altered it for the 1974 publication, apparently in part because of space limitations for the tables!

Why Did Armor Class Descend from 9 to 2?

One of the great riddles that has vexed D&D players for generations is this: why did armor class in original D&D descend from 9 to 2 inst...

playingattheworld.blogspot.com

 

[Nikosandros]

And the 1e AD&D attack tables contained a note that as an optional rule you could "smooth" the progression of Fighter attacks to be a 1pt improvement per level instead of 2 points every two levels. And of course this was itself a smoothing of the progression from OD&D and the Basic line, where the Fighter's attack progression jumped three points at 4th level.

In an amusing historical revelation, it turns out that the original concept was a 5% (1pt) improvement every level of advancement, but that they altered it for the 1974 publication, apparently in part because of space limitations for the tables!

Why Did Armor Class Descend from 9 to 2?

One of the great riddles that has vexed D&D players for generations is this: why did armor class in original D&D descend from 9 to 2 inst...

playingattheworld.blogspot.com

At some point, I smoothed all the attack and saving throws tables in AD&D, as those jumps never sat well with me...

 

[Umbran]

As do I. That you choose to misconstrue what I said so that you could make personal attacks against me

Mod Note:
If you feel personally attacked, you report it. After reporting it you disengage, so as nto to have the conflict continue.

I see a marked lack of disengagement on your part. Please consider it.

You made it personal and insulting in a private message you sent me...

I’m genuinely not sure how I violated your privacy.

You just publicly mention a PRIVATE message (your words for it, even), and then are wondering how you are violating PRIVACY?

So, @Aldarc and @darjr, I expect you to disengage from each other now. If you can't handle that, it will be handled for you.

 

[Undrave]

I'll just leave what Mike Mearls said to Greg Tito when Greg was still with the Escapist.

“I think we’ve hit the second era of RPG decadence, and it’s gone the opposite way,” he continued. “It’s all about player power now – the DM is just the rules guy – and the DM can’t contradict what the players say. [The game] is taking away from the DM, and that’s where I worry because other types of games can do that better. I might as well play a board game, ’cause I’m just here enforcing the rules. Without the DM as the creative guy, what’s the point?”

Mearls admits 4th edition might have gone too far in creating a perfectly balanced game. “We’ve lost faith of what makes an RPG an RPG,” he said, admitting that in trying to please gamers with a limited imagination, 4th edition might have punished those with an active one. “There’s this fear of the bad gaming group, where the game is so good that even playing with a bad gaming group, you’ll still have fun.”

Now please note, I do think it's maybe an overreaction. He was just coming from the end of 4e, essentially.

As a 4e fan… this feels insulting…

And 4e was the easiest to DM. You didn’t have to constantly worry about the HOW, but instead you could focus on the WHAT, WHERE and WHY.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I honestly feel that a lot of power was given back to the DM in 4e, after it had been taken away in 3.x. OTOH, 5e definitely empowers the DM, which is nice, but it often leaves them with what I would consider "not a lot of guidance" for their decision-making. Sometimes, this is a feature, but often it's a flaw.

 

[BigZebra]

I miss Mike being part of D&D actually. I think he had some good ideas in both 4e and 5e. What is he even working on now? Still at WotC?

 

[Micah Sweet]

As a 4e fan… this feels insulting…

And 4e was the easiest to DM. You didn’t have to constantly worry about the HOW, but instead you could focus on the WHAT, WHERE and WHY.

A lot of folks care about the HOW. I see no reason Mearls shouldn't have said what he said, provided he believed it. Nothing wrong with expressing his opinion.

 

[darjr]

I miss Mike being part of D&D actually. I think he had some good ideas in both 4e and 5e. What is he even working on now? Still at WotC?

He’s at WotC designing games. I think he’s with Magic which is another huge passion of his.

 

[Ondath]

I miss Mike being part of D&D actually. I think he had some good ideas in both 4e and 5e. What is he even working on now? Still at WotC?

He works behind the scenes in the Magic the Gathering department AFAIK. I don't think we'll ever see him in a public-facing role, and we probably won't see him in the D&D department again.

I kinda miss the vision for 5e while he was still involved, but I don't know if the shift since Tasha's is due to him leaving or if the design team's philosophy was already changing.

 

[Lanefan]

At some point, I smoothed all the attack and saving throws table in AD&D, as those jumps never sat well with me...

Same here.