D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Vaalingrade]

...wow. that's an awful rule. that just recursively increases construction time forever (since every day that passes - including the added days, as written - adds more and more time to construction). all they had to say was "construction time is quadrupled while the character is away" and they still managed to find a way to phrase it as to make it completely nonfunctional. i'm actually kind of impressed.

Par for the course.

The process seems to be 'throw out an idea', never consider the play implications, check to see if it's 'simple' (meaning has no actual mechanics aside from the three or so they have), print immediately.

 

[Oofta]

I think sometimes you just have to come out and say it: I don't care. I don't care about rules for digging because I can't imagine them being an interesting part of the fiction that I want to explore. That doesn't mean I don't care about a shovel, for instance, but the existence of a shovel on the equipment list tells me that there will be interesting things for me to dig up as part of the game. If you've played BG3 you know what this means. When I came across a shovel I thought "why do I care about this?" and then I later learned why.

The things you put into a game tell you what the designers think are important, or at least they should tell that. In my experience, a lot of equipment in D&D is there because it's always there, and someone arbitrarily said "yeah, that makes sense for it to be there."

You only have limited space in a game and putting things that a majority of players think are important to interact with and will think of as important is how (in my opinion) you should do equipment if you're not going to abstract it. You have a tent, but do you have a tent pole? Stakes to mount the tent with? A tent floor to keep you dry? Don't know, but we assume things, don't we? It's the level which we want to spell things out in detail as opposed to just making assumptions or abstracting them that matters when we discuss equipment.

I don't think it's going out too far on a limb to say that many complex use cases for different equipment are more than the typical D&D player wants to go in terms of rules. What we're discussing is where the line is drawn for making that happen.

I've played D&D for decades. I'm trying to remember a single instance where knowing exactly how much a shovel could shovel ever came into play. There were times when having a shovel was useful. Times when we had to get equipment such as pickaxes. But beyond that? Nada. Same with tents - the details weren't important the only thing important was that we were actually carting around a tent. Cold weather gear (before Frostmaiden) I just charged what I thought was a reasonable price for cold weather clothing.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I've played D&D for decades. I'm trying to remember a single instance where knowing exactly how much a shovel could shovel ever came into play. There were times when having a shovel was useful. Times when we had to get equipment such as pickaxes. But beyond that? Nada. Same with tents - the details weren't important the only thing important was that we were actually carting around a tent. Cold weather gear (before Frostmaiden) I just charged what I thought was a reasonable price for cold weather clothing.

Let's flip it around. If you didn't have the shovel, pickax or tent, what would have happened?

 

[Oofta]

Let's flip it around. If you didn't have the shovel, pickax or tent, what would have happened?

No tent? Con save for exhaustion because we were sleeping in the cold rain. No shovel? Would have taken us longer, but the time it took initially was an arbitrary judgement call by the DM anyway. No pickaxe? Probably wouldn't have gotten through without alternative magical means.

But honestly? Other than the tent occasionally needed to keep us out of the rain it was mostly fluff.

 

[Lanefan]

Resisting extreme temperatures has little to no combat use, so in all likelihood any spell that provides that effect wouldn't require concentration, which is strictly a balancing mechanic that occasionally pretends to have a part in the fiction.

In 1e (and 2e I think) Resist Cold and Resist Heat (also Endure Cold and Endure Heat, never did understand why there's both versions) also provided one-time partial protection against magical heat/cold e.g. Fireball or White Dragon breath, so there certainly was a combat use for them.

And if the Cleric has to cast Resist (or Endure) Cold on everyone at the start of the travel day that's a lot less curing for later if they run afoul of something dangerous.

 

[Lanefan]

There's a bazillion things we don't have a price for.

Flaw.

If you want detailed accounting D&D is not the right game for you.

Incorrect solution to flaw.

Or find some 3PP that provides it.

Possible, but sub-optimal, solution to flaw; in that not everyone has access to 3pp material (e.g. if they play in AL).

 

[Lanefan]

I've played D&D for decades. I'm trying to remember a single instance where knowing exactly how much a shovel could shovel ever came into play.

I've more than once had to determine (somehow!) how long it took the party to dig a grave or pit to bury/hide one or more bodies, when time was an issue.

But honestly? Other than the tent occasionally needed to keep us out of the rain it was mostly fluff.

And here might be the "true issue" underneath all of this, and it can be summed up in two words:

Fluff matters.

 

[Oofta]

I've more than once had to determine (somehow!) how long it took the party to dig a grave or pit to bury/hide one or more bodies, when time was an issue.
And here might be the "true issue" underneath all of this, and it can be summed up in two words:

Fluff matters.

But if it's fluff, you don't need details.

 

[Lanefan]

But if it's fluff, you don't need details.

And that's the divide here: some want the game to provide details for their fluff as well as their crunch.

I want equipment lists and pricing, and castle-house-ship-cart-inn costs both to build or to buy, and weather tables coupled with DM-side rules for how weather can affect travel and-or adventuring, and much more; such that a) the players are gently encouraged to have their PCs interact with the setting outside of just adventuring and b) when they do the groundwork is there for me-as-DM to handle it.

Which might bring up another true issue: 5e doesn't do nearly enough to support or encourage downtime and-or activities therein.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In 1e (and 2e I think) Resist Cold and Resist Heat (also Endure Cold and Endure Heat, never did understand why there's both versions) also provided one-time partial protection against magical heat/cold e.g. Fireball or White Dragon breath, so there certainly was a combat use for them.

And if the Cleric has to cast Resist (or Endure) Cold on everyone at the start of the travel day that's a lot less curing for later if they run afoul of something dangerous.

I was talking about current (non) design, a la WotC 5e. In the older editions I prefer, those kind of spells go down just like you say, and it's great.