D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Micah Sweet]

What if a player declares that they steal one of the beer steins, shove it in their backpack, and then later on declare - as the GM is describing the heavy secret door slamming shut behind the PCs - that they pull it out and shove it between door and wall to stop the door fully closing?

How can we possibly adjudicate that without half-a-page of stats for the full range of beer steins, including their physical tolerances to being crushed by the pressure of counter-weighted heavy stone doors?

I guarantee you that, if a DM declared that the closing doors would crush the stein, even if there's every reason in the narrative to believe that's true based on how strong the doors are vs. the stein, without hard rules, many players would pitch a fit.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Not everyone wants to do D&D the 4e way.

Sure, but I think what @pemerton (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is kind of the "pick a lane" factor.

Either you go with very limited and abstract equipment lists, and only look at stuff that actually matters.

or

You go with something more like older editions or Torchbearer, where it's more maximalist and maintaining the lists are part of the charm of the game.

Whereas going in-between with equipment lists, but almost none of it matters (as 5E tends towards) is kind of a waste of everyone's time and also without the charm of the maximalist approach.

I guarantee you that, if a DM declared that the closing doors would crush the stein, even if there's every reason in the narrative to believe that's true based on how strong the doors are vs. the stein, without hard rules, many players would pitch a fit.

I disagree, actually. If the players had just grabbed the stein, and it hadn't been described particularly, I don't think many or even really any players would "pitch a fit". If, on the other hand, the stein had been described and was made of steel or something (not sure that's an ideal medium for beer but w/e), or it was some stein the players had had for a while, and that they thought was great for some reason, then you might see the fit-pitching.

 

[Parmandur]

wanting necessary components of the game

I would posit thst for 95% of tables, the exact mechanics of shovels and tents are not necessary components of the game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, but I think what @pemerton (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is kind of the "pick a lane" factor.

Either you go with very limited and abstract equipment lists, and only look at stuff that actually matters.

or

You go with something more like older editions or Torchbearer, where it's more maximalist and maintaining the lists are part of the charm of the game.

Whereas going in-between with equipment lists, but almost none of it matters (as 5E tends towards) is kind of a waste of everyone's time and also without the charm of the maximalist approach.

I disagree, actually. If the players had just grabbed the stein, and it hadn't been described particularly, I don't think many or even really any players would "pitch a fit". If, on the other hand, the stein had been described and was made of steel or something (not sure that's an ideal medium for beer but w/e), or it was some stein the players had had for a while, and that they thought was great for some reason, then you might see the fit-pitching.

Yeah. @pemerton , prefers option 1, while I want option 2. The problem is, they are incompatible.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I would posit thst for 95% of tables, the exact mechanics of shovels and tents are not necessary components of the game.

Nope. But their presence can matter.

The group decides to make a trench to defend or whatever before the expected charge at dawn. Insert whatever shovel using task you like.

As DM, if they bought a shovel I might give a dc for the timed task which has consequences.

What tools do you have? Ok you have a shovel and pick? DC X.

No? What do you want to dig with? You have a sword and your hands you said…man the going is beyond slow. You estimate your are unlikely to make it based on the last hour. High dc and disadvantage or one of the two.

Oh, you want to use your dagger to fashion a wooden spade? Ok. It will take a little time. Go ahead and roll (athletics, or whatever make sense). The roll is still X but with disadvantage.

I as DM make lots LOTS of calls with DCs. Surely you don’t want me doing math looking at each shovel full against the size and estimated volume of the trench? A hard calculation for shovel use?

I don’t. But I still like to know the party brought the items, have them listed and are rewarded for preparing to adventure.

Now if u want to tell me the shovel full vs volume of trench is cool, don’t tell me you can’t mark off a spent arrow via hash mark.

Or maybe you want to say shovel = trench making as an ability and we just assume u always have a shovel. If you like that…ok. I don’t. I prefer some detail for immersion. Others I know will differ.

But this is not an all or none thing in my book.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yeah. @pemerton , prefers option 1, while I want option 2. The problem is, they are incompatible.

I do get that - I do think D&D would be better if it picked either than the current "Option 3" where it just doesn't support either and yet equipment is largely pointless, though.

I think you could design a game to support both, and if we'd ever got that "modular design", maybe 5E would.

 

[Parmandur]

Nope. But their presence can matter.

The group decides to make a trench to defend or whatever before the expected charge at dawn. Insert whatever shovel using task you like.

As DM, if they bought a shovel I might give a dc for the timed task which has consequences.

What tools do you have? Ok you have a shovel and pick? DC X.

No? What do you want to dig with? You have a sword and your hands you said…man the going is beyond slow. You estimate your are unlikely to make it based on the last hour. High dc and disadvantage or one of the two.

Oh, you want to use your dagger to fashion a wooden spade? Ok. It will take a little time. Go ahead and roll (athletics, or whatever make sense). The roll is still X but with disadvantage.

I as DM make lots LOTS of calls with DCs. Surely you don’t want me doing math looking at each shovel full against the size and estimated volume of the trench? A hard calculation for shovel use?

I don’t. But I still like to know the party brought the items, have them listed and are rewarded for preparing to adventure.

Now if u want to tell me the shovel full vs volume of trench is cool, don’t tell me you can’t mark off a spent arrow via hash mark.

Or maybe you want to say shovel = trench making as an ability and we just assume u always have a shovel. If you like that…ok. I don’t. I prefer some detail for immersion. Others I know will differ.

But this is not an all or none thing in my book.

Yeah, I get what you are saying. And I think for most folks, having the shovel in the equipment list and the general Skills DC system will suffice, and leaving it ambiguous allows for different tables to apply the rules of the world as they wish.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I do get that - I do think D&D would be better if it picked either than the current "Option 3" where it just doesn't support either and yet equipment is largely pointless, though.

I think you could design a game to support both, and if we'd ever got that "modular design", maybe 5E would.

This is an ideal case for modular options. It should be possible to support both (Not at the same time or course).
You could have the trad explorations rules and separately the skill challenge version.

 

[Hussar]

I would posit thst for 95% of tables, the exact mechanics of shovels and tents are not necessary components of the game.

Probably true. But there is a huge excluded middle between zero mechanics and “exact” mechanics.

Is it really too much to expect a sentence or two describing typical interactions for items?

After all, in the beer stein example, the DMG does actually have guidelines for damaging an object and how durable objects generally are. We don’t need complete stat blocks, but it’s nice to know if I could use a small object to block the door or not.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Yeah, I get what you are saying. And I think for most folks, having the shovel in the equipment list and the general Skills DC system will suffice, and leaving it ambiguous allows for different tables to apply the rules of the world as they wish.

I agree and think that is an actual strength.

It allows for application on the fly to many situations.