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Grade the Pathfinder 2E Game System

How do you feel about the Pathfinder 2E System?

  • I love it.

    Votes: 30 17.1%
  • It's pretty good.

    Votes: 32 18.3%
  • Meh, it's okay.

    Votes: 38 21.7%
  • It's pretty bad.

    Votes: 15 8.6%
  • I hate it.

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • I've never played it.

    Votes: 59 33.7%
  • I've never heard of it.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

Thomas Shey

Legend
One thing I’ve learned bout myself from running PF2 and playing Stonetop is I find I don’t like encoding the process of play too much in the game’s mechanics. I don’t like skill actions in PF2 and moves in PbtA games for about the same reasons. I would rather have something more top-down with mechanics hung off it (like the basic play loop of BitD or the various procedures of B/X). Trying to keep all the bits of PF2 in my head all at once was too much. (I also didn’t like monster- or trap-building, but that’s more of an aesthetic/design preference that ended up clashing with how PF2 works.)

Whereas I'd rather the mechanics do as much of the heavy lifting as possible, to the degree I can keep track of them (one of the reasons I could be fonder of D&D-sphere games is their tendency to overuse exception based design choices; if anything, PF2e seems a bit better than many to me, but again, I'm not a rules-light proponent by nature so I'm going to see it through that lens.
 

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Thomas Shey

Legend
  1. Everything is a feat. This is a short way of saying I hate the general character progression. I really don't want to play the game for several levels before I feel like I have a fleshed out character. I hate it in 5e D&D, and PF2e makes it worse. In 5e I feel like I have to wait until level 3-4 before I get a character. In PF2e, I built about half a dozen characters and they didn't feel complete to me until level 8 at the earliest. That's how the game felt in 3e D&D, and I hated it. Just let the game be fun at level 1!

While I disagree that its not fun at level 1, I think the problem you're having is a generic one with leveled systems to some degree; the zero to hero mentality is so baked in that its easy to feel starting character aren't up to the image you have for them. That generally requires a system that starts people more toward their peak, but has a significantly flatter advancement. (To make it clear, this is generally much more my preference which is one of the reasons I'm not actually a big fan of most D&D sphere games; its probably not a coincidence that outside PF2e the two others I have any fondness for both have a compressed level range)


  1. The game has too much stuff. There's too many options. Too many buttons and dials. Too many classes. Too many feats. Too many ancestries. The game clearly puts most of it's effort into the character-building subgame, which means that the game is very likely to over-reward system mastery. I don't want a game about building characters, populating their paper doll, and optimizing them. I want a game about playing characters in an imaginary world.

It really doesn't overreward system mastery. It kind of demands you do understand what you're trying to do, but once that's the case, unlike D&D3e there's relatively few big winners and losers. And usually prereqs will chase you away from bad mix-and-match choices.
 
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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Pathfinder Second Edition strongly rewards system mastery, but not in character build (thanks to the way the system math works there is not too much variance in efficacy of characters of the same class). The vast majority of the game's challenge revolves around skillfully applying discrete mechanics and learning how various monsters work. It's a game built around timing, coordination and execution with an extremely high skill cap. I love it for that reason, but not everyone will.

Pathfinder Second Edition is one of the few tabletop RPGs where I could hand the same character to two completely different players and get phenomenally different results.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Pathfinder Second Edition strongly rewards system mastery, but not in character build (thanks to the way the system math works there is not too much variance in efficacy of characters of the same class).

Yeah, I should have qualified that in-play system mastery is a different beast.

The vast majority of the game's challenge revolves around skillfully applying discrete mechanics and learning how various monsters work. It's a game built around timing, coordination and execution with an extremely high skill cap. I love it for that reason, but not everyone will.

Agreed. People who just want to plow through without understanding how to use their character effectively are probably going to find it an awfully frustrating experience; I sometimes struggle a bit when I'm having an off day myself, and I really like that kind of engagement.

Pathfinder Second Edition is one of the few tabletop RPGs where I could hand the same character to two completely different players and get phenomenally different results.

Oddly enough, the thing I'd compare it most to is Hero System martial artists.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Everything is a feat. This is a short way of saying I hate the general character progression. I really don't want to play the game for several levels before I feel like I have a fleshed out character. I hate it in 5e D&D, and PF2e makes it worse. In 5e I feel like I have to wait until level 3-4 before I get a character. In PF2e, I built about half a dozen characters and they didn't feel complete to me until level 8 at the earliest. That's how the game felt in 3e D&D, and I hated it. Just let the game be fun at level 1!
Have you checked out Fabula Ultima? Every character starts of multiclassed at the beginning.
 

While I disagree that its not fun at level 1, I think the problem you're having is a generic one with leveled systems to some degree; the zero to hero mentality is so baked in that its easy to feel starting character aren't up to the image you have for them.

No, the phenomenon I've experienced is pretty much only universal to deeply a-la-carte systems. Any class-based system with non-existent or severely limited multiclassing tends to avoid it immediately, because there's no inherent flaw in allowing you to get really good, class-defining, signature abilities at level 1. Any system that lets you pick up a level of this and a few levels of that as your means of creating character options pretty much guarantees that you can't have those kinds of abilities early in the class tree.

4e D&D avoids it much better than either 3e, 5e, or either edition of PF. 5e LotR and AiME prove that the 5e system can do it pretty easily once you discard multiclassing, and discarding the spell system helps even more. B/X D&D avoids it better than 3e or 5e because the only abilities you have are either what you start the game with or those tied to the magic items you find along the way.

Basically, if your game has to say, "We can't allow front-loading of class abilities because multiclassing exists," then your game system has this problem.

PF2e is a different. It doesn't allow 3e style multiclassing. However, the game silos nearly all character abilities and progression into categorized feats, grants very minimal sets of abilities at level 1, and then the design evenly spreads progression out over all 20 levels. In other words, PF2e still does all the anti-frontloading tricks that it's progenitors did. It's the same design as PF1e and 3e D&D, even though the game doesn't have to care about multiclassing breaking the design in half! They just left in this artifact of 3e design in without understanding that you don't have to be a clodhopping peasant at level 1. It just means you have to wait until much later in the game to have a minimally meaningful and minimally defining set of abilities.

PF2e could front-load your abilities more than it does and launch your character as a hero faster. It's a vestigial design.

Worse, PF2e doubles down on it. They take this vestigial design from classes, and they move it to Ancestry and Background, too. If you're an Elf, you get low light vision and the elven language. Then you can pick one of a dozen elf abilities. The rest aren't available until several levels later. Want to be an Elf that knows about elven arcana and elven weapon training and has elven resistance to magic? D&D lets you do that at level 1. PF2e lets you do that at level 9. To me, an Elf Hunter Fighter simply doesn't feel distinct enough at level 1 from a Human Guard Fighter.

The only reason it looks complicated is because they give it all to you as choices. But your resulting character can just do less in terms of standout, signature abilities and the game just doesn't have flavorful, situational abilities unless you purposefully select them. That's why I say my character doesn't feel complete until about level 8. It takes about that long to have earned enough feats to have enough distinctiveness. If I'm an Elf Hunter Fighter, well at level 1 that means I can see in the dark, can use weapons, and have some skill proficiencies. And that's basically it. If I want two elf abilities? Yeah, that won't be done until level 5 when I get my second Ancestry feat. By the time you get to level 8, you'll have a few abilities from each area, and now it feels like my character has enough stuff from the catalog to feel like a unique character.

Except I'm freaking level 8! Even in an idea world the campaign is basically half over.

But there's even less to like. I'm making all these decisions at character creation that limit what I can choose for the rest of the game. They don't actually feel like they do much at level 1, but those three choices at level 1 affects almost every choice I get for the rest of the game. It's particularly frustrating because I can't see how the game allows my character to develop over the campaign as a result of the events within the campaign because so much of everything is decided for me at level 1.

So, again, it feels like I need to have my character planned out completely before I sit down at the table, which is something I didn't like in 3e, or 4e, and is still over-rewarded in 5e. The game's rewarding me for completely planning my character in advance like that, and I don't want that. I don't really want to know what I'm going to take for the whole game before it even begins, and it feels really egregious because you're so bland at level 1.

Like it doesn't matter if every choice individually isn't OP. System mastery will allow me to make choices for abilities that work well together, or situational abilities that just come up far more often than everything else. That's rewarding system mastery. System mastery isn't about being able to make your character super OP. It's just about how much the game rewards experience with the game.

Nevemind the ludonarrative dissonance from reaching level 9 and gaining access to Ancestral abilities that are conceptually based on what your character should already know. "I have killed enough bandits to be able to understand my people's knowledge of Arcana and Nature." It's weird when D&D does it. PF2e seems to make everyone do it. Kinda weird.

The whole design feels orthogonal to how I think of TTRPG characters now. PF2e feels like a character building game that incidentally supports play as a TTRPG.
 

Retreater

Legend
But there's even less to like. I'm making all these decisions at character creation that limit what I can choose for the rest of the game. They don't actually feel like they do much at level 1, but those three choices at level 1 affects almost every choice I get for the rest of the game. It's particularly frustrating because I can't see how the game allows my character to develop over the campaign as a result of the events within the campaign because so much of everything is decided for me at level 1.
What about retraining during downtime?
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
Whereas I'd rather the mechanics do as much of the heavy lifting as possible, to the degree I can keep track of them (one of the reasons I could be fonder of D&D-sphere games is their tendency to overuse exception based design choices; if anything, PF2e seems a bit better than many to me, but again, I'm not a rules-light proponent by nature so I'm going to see it through that lens.
Unless I’m reading you incorrectly, this seems like a false dichotomy. The alternative to a system like PF2 is not necessarily one with a lack of mechanics or fewer ones. It’s how the mechanics are deployed that I dislike in PF2 (and notably also PbtA games) rather than the existence of mechanics per se. I don’t want more things left up to adjudication. If anything, PF2 leaves more up to GM discretion than I’d like anyway. I just don’t think the only way to address that is with an enumerated list of things you can do, which is why I’ve taken the approach I have in my homebrew system (see the five words commentary thread for examples of play).
 


Thomas Shey

Legend
No, the phenomenon I've experienced is pretty much only universal to deeply a-la-carte systems. Any class-based system with non-existent or severely limited multiclassing tends to avoid it immediately, because there's no inherent flaw in allowing you to get really good, class-defining, signature abilities at level 1. Any system that lets you pick up a level of this and a few levels of that as your means of creating character options pretty much guarantees that you can't have those kinds of abilities early in the class tree.

You obviously have a vastly different idea of this than I do. I considered OD&D level 1 characters about as far from fully mature and developed characters as you could get. The fact they had no meaningful options didn't exactly improve that.
 

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