D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[Azzy]

I mostly want a fantasy game fixed on the real world, where the breaks from reality are clearly so and not simply a matter or narrative convention.

Fortunately, Gygax didn't want the same...

D&D is a HEROIC fantasy game. Who can slit Conan’s throat at a blow? The examples are too numerous to mention, but the point is that the game is aimed at allowing participants to create a heroic character who is not subject to some fluke. Getting killed requires a lot of (mis-)play in most cases. How does the fighter escape the dragon’s breath? The same way other superheroes do — bending a link of chain or slipping into an unnoticed crevasse in the rock he was chained to or whatever, i.e. the same way all other larger-than-life sword & sorcery heroes manage to avoid certain death.

 

[Oofta]

I was actually picturing Fafhrd and the Mouser. It felt like they could start a brawl to me if needed, no magic required.

Depending on the situation starting a fight is fine. It's not going to automatically draw in enemies so that you can automatically attack them all. It will be dependent on the audience, the location, what's going on.

If it's just a wisdom save I could walk into a lady's knitting club and goad them into attacking with their knitting needles. Not going to happen. Go to a grand ball of foppish, non-combatent nobles and they're not going to attack. Perhaps slip poison into my drink they're giving me as a "peace" offering, but risk getting their outfits dirty? Nah. They have people for dealing with ruffians. For that matter if I start a fight with the wrong person they may just disintegrate my PC and call the servants to sweep up the pile of dust afterwards.

Start a brawl in a seedy tavern? Sure. But it's not going to be automatic, it depends on the situation.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Not to mention the weirdness of the goading working just fine on mindless automatons or creatures that do not understand your language etc.

 

[Oofta]

Worrying about whether "a person without supernatural abilities can accomplish it" is to me, trying to make a fantasy game fixed on the real world, instead of the fantasy genre.

Fafhrd could do this. Inigo Montoya could do this. Zorro could do this (and isn't even a fantasy hero!). Galavant could do this. Locke Lamora could do this. None of these characgters "use magic" in any overt sense. But, they live in worlds that are larger than life. It is genre appropriate for them to be able to do this.

The measure of magic is not the real world, but the genre you are aiming for. IMHO.

So Fafhrd could go up to a line of Buckingham palace guards and incite them to violence with just a few words in a moment? Without showing an immediate threat or touching them? A conclave of wizards would forego all spells and walk up to Fafhrd and engage in fisticuffs instead of just turning him into a toad? They can insult a pack of wolves by telling them their mother was a poodle?

But yes, I do judge what a person can do without magic with at least a baseline in reality. It may likely be feats of strength or skill that is not possible in our world, but it will just be an extension of what a real person could do if they were fast, strong, tough or skilled enough. It's the difference between watching the latest James Bond or even a Fast and Furious movie versus Harry Potter.

It's also just a preference that I have an option to play a mundane character. Even if that "mundane" character does things only Captain America could do.

 

[Cadence]

Depending on the situation starting a fight is fine. It's not going to automatically draw in enemies so that you can automatically attack them all. It will be dependent on the audience, the location, what's going on.

If it's just a wisdom save I could walk into a lady's knitting club and goad them into attacking with their knitting needles. Not going to happen. Go to a grand ball of foppish, non-combatent nobles and they're not going to attack. Perhaps slip poison into my drink they're giving me as a "peace" offering, but risk getting their outfits dirty? Nah. They have people for dealing with ruffians. For that matter if I start a fight with the wrong person they may just disintegrate my PC and call the servants to sweep up the pile of dust afterwards.

Start a brawl in a seedy tavern? Sure. But it's not going to be automatic, it depends on the situation.

Right. Hence my:

"What if it said the language has to be one they understood and instead of auto attacking you it shifted something like morale x points towards doing so? (So the pope wouldn't attack you, but heaven help you if it's a bunch of __ soccer fans?)."

to you a few posts back.

 

[Oofta]

Right. Hence my:

"What if it said the language has to be one they understood and instead of auto attacking you it shifted something like morale x points towards doing so? (So the pope wouldn't attack you, but heaven help you if it's a bunch of __ soccer fans?)."

to you a few posts back.

But that's just one aspect and you're ignoring the rest of what I stated.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Not to mention the weirdness of the goading working just fine on mindless automatons or creatures that do not understand your language etc.

That's not a real problem, though. "This ability only works against creatures who understand your language and are not mindless".

 

[Cadence]

But that's just one aspect and you're ignoring the rest of what I stated.

I thought I did? :-/

Which part did I miss, and I'll try again.

 

[billd91]

Start a brawl in a seedy tavern? Sure. But it's not going to be automatic, it depends on the situation.

For that matter, so's the attack. Little old ladies don't stab with knitting needles. They hit you with their knitting bag or purse. Gentry at a fête might slap you with a glove and demand satisfaction, you cur!

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

It's not a game ... it's a lifestyle.

Or at least that's what Hasbro, WotC, and all the influencers want you to think.