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I do also think that there are certain things that make D&D "D&D".
And everyone has their own pet definition, so that's no way to deal with the game as a whole aside from ignoring it.
It's like saying... Star Wars is cool, but let's get rid of the Force because it is stupid. It's not Star Wars if you get rid of the Force.
'All Jedi or no Jedi' is like the most basic unwritten rule people follow for most SW tabletop.

Also, the Force is a narrative device that matters to the story while daily attrition is a trapping for a playstyle that is no longer dominant.
 

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Also, the Force is a narrative device that matters to the story while daily attrition is a trapping for a playstyle that is no longer dominant.
Daily attrition has been dominant for nigh on 50 years, even in 4E and almost every D&D spin-off.

Saying something doesn't make it so. Evidence is necessary, which the history of D&D and so many of its spinoffs provides.
 



Of you think I changed the subject, I'm pretty sure we've been arguing across purposes anyway.

I described daily attrition as a 'trapping of a playstyle that hasn't been dominant', you then asserted that daily attrition continuing to exist is proof that... daily attrition? is dominant, which has nothing to do with the playstyle I said wasn't dominant. Lots of legacy elements are still hanging around without their original hosts making it through the decades.
 

That's a lot of words for a lot of vague guesswork about how they do things. What is the percentage number for "very satisfied?" What is the percentage for "satisfied?" And so on. It's all well and good to just make a claim of, "They run it through the ringer and come up with a mystical magical percentage," but it's actually impossible for them to tell.

It is not impossible for them to tell. It is simply impossible to say "A vote for Satisfied means 75%" when you are processing this data. And the reasons why are blatantly obvious. They have a variable number of respondents and a variable number of responses on a particular subject.

Think about it Max, it is completely possible that out of 1,000 people who vote on the Bard that not all of them actually vote on all of the abilities. They might leave it blank. So if the Bard has 225 Very Satisified Answers, 615 Satisfied answers, 140 Dissatisfied and 20 Very Dissatisfied, but Bardic Inspiration has 310 Very Satsified, 350 Satisfied, 140 Dissatisfied and 80 Very Dissatisfied... what's the final tally? What percentage of the percents do you carry over from Bardic Inspiration into the percentages of the class? If you are talking about Counter charm, a less iconic ability, do you alter that percentage of the percents?

The reason I can't say that Satisfied means you want a score 75% is because these surveys are FAR more complex than a single answer leading to a single percentage.

There's no way that they can tell that my "very dissatisfied" means I like it 8%, but yours means that you like it 3%. There's no way for them to know that my "satisfied" was almost at the "very satisfied" level, but your "satisfied" on the same question was almost "dissatisfied." And if they are assigning arbitrary constant numbers to everyone's answers, they will never be correct with what they come up with.

Sigh Have you ever heard of the Wisdom of the Crowd Theory? A classic example of it occurred in 1906 in Plymouth. They had 800 people guess the weight of a slaughtered ox. The median guess, when all the data was processed, was within 1% of the real weight.

Yes, there might be a 5% gap between your answer and my answer in "I can objectively read opinions as statistics" mode. But when you are averaging THOUSANDS of answers, that difference is scoured away. And if they are "only" 97% accurate? Heck, literal scientific papers can have 95% certainty with a margin of error of 4 to 8 %. There is actually a calculator online that takes population size vs sample size to calculate margin of error. With 1 million players and 40,000 players taking the surveys? They are sitting a around 1% potential margin.

They don't need to be hyper-precise. Aggregating that much data and using the proper tools, they have about as accurate of a picture as is humanly possible to get.


How on earth is dissatisfied = satisfied going to help anyone understand? Dissatisfied = less than 50% or less, because if you are more than that, you are at least somewhat satisfied with how things turned out. And I love how "very dissatisfied" or "I hate it" = a 60% approval.

I never said dissatisfied = satisfied. I said that dissatisfied fell into the range of percentages that would indicate WoTC feels the subject needs to be salvaged, but also can be salvaged.

You may insist that dissatisfied is less than 50%, but that means you don't want it at all. You don't even want them to try and fix it. And which point, there is no reason to have a lower level. You can't just apply these things arbitrarily and expect to convince anyone. And yes, I gave 10% spreads on the range, because the highest end of Very Dissatisfied blends into the lowest end of Dissatisfied. What else would you expect? That there is a 5% gap between each answer where responses are sucked up by the nether void?
 

It is not impossible for them to tell. It is simply impossible to say "A vote for Satisfied means 75%" when you are processing this data.
Or 70% or 80% of 65% of 82% or...

Since it's impossible for them to get an accurate percentage, how the hell are they competently coming up with percentages for keeping something vs. re-writing it vs. ditching it?
Think about it Max, it is completely possible that out of 1,000 people who vote on the Bard that not all of them actually vote on all of the abilities. They might leave it blank. So if the Bard has 225 Very Satisified Answers, 615 Satisfied answers, 140 Dissatisfied and 20 Very Dissatisfied, but Bardic Inspiration has 310 Very Satsified, 350 Satisfied, 140 Dissatisfied and 80 Very Dissatisfied... what's the final tally? What percentage of the percents do you carry over from Bardic Inspiration into the percentages of the class? If you are talking about Counter charm, a less iconic ability, do you alter that percentage of the percents?
It doesn't matter. They still can't get an accurate percentage for them to use to keep, modify or ditch the ability being voted on.
The reason I can't say that Satisfied means you want a score 75% is because these surveys are FAR more complex than a single answer leading to a single percentage.
You might as well guess at the percentage. They are. 🤷‍♂️
Sigh Have you ever heard of the Wisdom of the Crowd Theory? A classic example of it occurred in 1906 in Plymouth. They had 800 people guess the weight of a slaughtered ox. The median guess, when all the data was processed, was within 1% of the real weight.
A lot of people apparently liked chopped up oxen. It's also a False Equivalence.

The reason they guessed that close was that they give actual numbers. 801 pounds. 745 pounds. 1103 pounds. You can average those numbers to come up with an answer. Similarly, if they actually asked us to rate each ability from 1-100 they could accurately gauge percentages. If those people guessing the weight of that ox had only had Very heavy, heavy, not that heavy and very light to choose from, it would have been impossible to come up with numbers to apply to the true weight of the ox.

So a contest where they gave measurable numbers is not at all equivalent to a survey where you give no numbers at all.
I never said dissatisfied = satisfied. I said that dissatisfied fell into the range of percentages that would indicate WoTC feels the subject needs to be salvaged, but also can be salvaged.
Yes you did. Satisfied to some degree is 51% or higher. You literally had very dissatisfied = satisfied as you started the very dissatisfied rating at 60% and then went down from there.
You may insist that dissatisfied is less than 50%, but that means you don't want it at all.
Um, yes. That's what dissatisfied means. It means you don't like it as presented and don't want it that way at all.
 

With 1 million players and 40,000 players taking the surveys? They are sitting a around 1% potential margin.
only if they measured the 40,000 replies they got accurately, which is not clear at all

Aggregating that much data and using the proper tools, they have about as accurate of a picture as is humanly possible to get.
see above, I have no doubt they can tally up 40,000 random numbers, the problem is elsewhere
 

Or 70% or 80% of 65% of 82% or...

Since it's impossible for them to get an accurate percentage, how the hell are they competently coming up with percentages for keeping something vs. re-writing it vs. ditching it?

It doesn't matter. They still can't get an accurate percentage for them to use to keep, modify or ditch the ability being voted on.

You might as well guess at the percentage. They are. 🤷‍♂️

You are completely missing the point. By your logic every survey ever created is useless because you can't precisely get exactly what people mean. There is no direct line, there cannot be. You say it doesn't matter, but it is the entire point.


A lot of people apparently liked chopped up oxen. It's also a False Equivalence.

The reason they guessed that close was that they give actual numbers. 801 pounds. 745 pounds. 1103 pounds. You can average those numbers to come up with an answer. Similarly, if they actually asked us to rate each ability from 1-100 they could accurately gauge percentages. If those people guessing the weight of that ox had only had Very heavy, heavy, not that heavy and very light to choose from, it would have been impossible to come up with numbers to apply to the true weight of the ox.

So a contest where they gave measurable numbers is not at all equivalent to a survey where you give no numbers at all.

It was an example. They use it for non-number surveys too. It isn't a phenomena that only occurs when you have numbers. The entire theory rests on the idea that the extremes on both ends cancel out, and the closer to the middle you are, the more accurate the answer is.

Yes you did. Satisfied to some degree is 51% or higher. You literally had very dissatisfied = satisfied as you started the very dissatisfied rating at 60% and then went down from there.

No. You are completely making up this idea that 51% equals satisfied. If you were "satisfied" with your work would you redo it? Would you refer to it as something you believe you can still salvage? Heck, remember, a score of 51% doesn't even get that. It gets tossed in the trash.

This is like saying that getting a 51% on test, since you got more answers correct than incorrect, means you pass. It doesn't work that way. And it may sound weird to you, but that doesn't make it false. 51% on the One DnD survey means enough people said "dissatisfied" and "Very Dissatisfied" that it is getting thrown out. You can say "that's stupid, 51% should be salvageable and 49% should be thrown out" but that isn't what they are doing, and they are doing it the way they are for a plethora of very good reasons. Including

1) Getting a super majority
2) Better public perception
3) A goal of high quality.


Um, yes. That's what dissatisfied means. It means you don't like it as presented and don't want it that way at all.

Then why is there a very dissatisfaction level Max? It would be like having a Living, Dead, and Super duper dead. There is no point in a category that is just the exact same as the first category, only with an exclamation point.
 

only if they measured the 40,000 replies they got accurately, which is not clear at all


see above, I have no doubt they can tally up 40,000 random numbers, the problem is elsewhere

I saw above. It is missing the entire point. Again, it is QUITE clear that these surveys have been giving them good information. You are just insisting they aren't because you don't like it.
 

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