D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[Remathilis]

That's a great argument for changing Spirit Shroud's upcast benefit, not for nerfing thirsting blade.

Spirit Shroud isn't part of the playtest. Pact of the blade and its related invocations are. Spirit Shroud is found to be middling in most Gish builds, but OP is the one who already has a lot going for it. I wonder what's changed?

Your love for the Warlock class has blinded you from what everyone is saying: warlock can out-melee fighter, paladin and barbarian builds, out range the ranger and has access to 9th level spells to boot without having to sacrifice anything. It's too much.

 

[Mistwell]

Nothing in the Pact of the Blade setup people are freaking out over makes it any more survivable in melee than the Eldritch Blast setup is anyway, so

Why don't you examine a build:

 

[Mistwell]

I think its fine that Warlock does more damage than a Barbarian or Fighter. After all he is an absolute Glass Cannon at that point. No spells slots for Defense, d8 HD, light Armor and no Class Features that help his survivability.

They can heal on attacking, knock you down and then have the speed of a monk.

 

[Mistwell]

Spirit Shroud isn't part of the playtest. Pact of the blade and its related invocations are. Spirit Shroud is found to be middling in most Gish builds, but OP is the one who already has a lot going for it. I wonder what's changed?

Your love for the Warlock class has blinded you from what everyone is saying: warlock can out-melee fighter, paladin and barbarian builds, out range the ranger and has access to 9th level spells to boot without having to sacrifice anything. It's too much.

And once again...NONE of this is even including a subclass yet!

 

[TwoSix]

Spirit Shroud isn't part of the playtest. Pact of the blade and its related invocations are. Spirit Shroud is found to be middling in most Gish builds, but OP is the one who already has a lot going for it. I wonder what's changed?

Your love for the Warlock class has blinded you from what everyone is saying: warlock can out-melee fighter, paladin and barbarian builds, out range the ranger and has access to 9th level spells to boot without having to sacrifice anything. It's too much.

I think there's some tough design constraints here.

EB+AB is already competitive with all but the top-tier martial build. Ideally, Pact of the Blade should be an upgrade to using EB+AB even at higher tier to maintain its identity. But if you build that scaling in, then Pact of the Blade will be right at the top tier of melee builds while also retaining full spell level progression. There simply isn't a lot of space (or any space) to make Blade Pact both better than EB+AB and not overly strong, because EB+AB is such a strong baseline for so little investment.

In my ideal world, warlock would get a class level feature that adds roughly 5 damage per tier to whatever they attack with, whether that be Eldritch Blast, some other cantrip, their Chain Pact familiar, or Blade Pact. Then the attack vector becomes an aesthetic choice, which is what I feel it should be.

 

[Scribe]

But it's fine for a caster to have at-will ranged attacks that are on par or better than a Ranger or Fighter? You see the double-standard here, right?

I think casters should throw darts. Cantrips should be weak, and from that perspective the power of EB is perverse, so...

 

[Charlaquin]

Have you not been following the thread? Lifedrinker, Spirit Shroud, Graze, Eldritch Smite, Great Weapon Master, magic weapons, etc.. Come on, I know you know there are tons more options to increase weapon damage that just don't exist for EB. Treantmonk's calculation was 66 damage per round at 13th level, before even looking at subclasses!

Ok, so then the problem really isn’t warlocks “having 9th level spells, three attacks, and the best cantrip in the game,” again, none of which is new. The problem is that if you dedicate a significant portion of your character building resources to it, you can stack enough on-hit riders to your melee attacks to achieve very high (arguably too high) DPR. So, perhaps some of those on-hit riders could do with some revisions.

Because they never had these changes in the past. Obviously. What is it you think we're discussing here?

I was responding to the assertion that warlocks are overpowered now because they “have 9th level spells, three attacks, and the best cantrip in the game.” I think that is an extremely misleading phrasing that places the blame for any potential imbalance in completely the wrong place. Having 9th level spell (just one, once per day), three attacks, and the best cantrip in the game is all decade-old news for the Warlock. People are only suddenly complaining about it because Treantmonk pointed out one very specific build that involves three attacks per turn and does very high DPR. If that build is a problem (and I’m open to the possibility that it might be), I think the on-hit effects that are multiplying its damage should be the things getting this critique, not “9th level spells, three attacks, and the best cantrip in the game.”

 

[Charlaquin]

Spirit Shroud isn't part of the playtest.

No reason it couldn’t be. Just putting a new, nerfed version of Spirit Shroud into the new PHB would be a very direct, effective way to fix this problem (again, if playtesting does find it to be a problem).

 

[Charlaquin]

I think casters should throw darts. Cantrips should be weak, and from that perspective the power of EB is perverse, so...

I mean, that’s a valid opinion. But, again, Eldritch Blast isn’t a new thing.

 

[Scribe]

I mean, that’s a valid opinion. But, again, Eldritch Blast isn’t a new thing.

Yes I know. If EB is the focus of the class, sure let that be their strength.

To also have as many melee attacks or more than dedicated melee classes? And still get the top level spells, and still have caster level flexibility?

Yeah casters were too good already. Throwing more wood on the fire very much is a bridge too far.

How is this even a question?