D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[Charlaquin]

which candidly has been proven wrong in several posts now. There are lots of "new wood" to the warlock that is not in 2014. We can argue how relevant each piece is, but you cannot deny they exist....we have proven they do.

You’re ignoring the context of the exchange between @Scribe and myself of which the “wood on the fire” comment was a part. We were talking about 9th level spells, three attacks per turn, and eldritch blast. None of those things are new wood.

 

[Charlaquin]

Lets accept, as it was in the 2014 Release, that EB is the 'class feature'. This is fine. Warlocks get powerful spells, but few of them, but its balanced around Short Rest, so without EB, they would be pretty bad right? Thats their 'balance'.

They are still casters. They are still as or more powerful, and to then ON TOP, given them more Melee attacks than some dedicated melee classes?

Why?! I still havent even seen a defense for this. Its power on top of power, and its trampling on the space, and role of other classes.

It’s simply flawed, unless "it’s fine for Warlocks to be S tier above everyone else in all area's of the game" is fine. Not a take I would particularly go for, but fine.

By accepting Eldritch Blast and Mystic Arcanum, you’re already accepting the combination of 9th level spells, powerful cantrip, and 3 attacks per round. What makes the fact that Eldritch Blast attacks are made at range less objectionable than being able to do exactly the same thing in melee?

 

[Scribe]

By accepting Eldritch Blast and Mystic Arcanum, you’re already accepting the combination of 9th level spells, powerful cantrip, and 3 attacks per round. What makes the fact that Eldritch Blast attacks are made at range less objectionable than being able to do exactly the same thing in melee?

Because its a caster, and melee is already disadvantaged for various reasons.

It doesnt help that Cha is the face stat as well.

Honest its an embarrassment of riches for a class that didnt need it. They should not be able to melee remotely as well as actual melee classes, without giving up casting/EB power.

I gotta say I'm actually shocked this isnt self evident.

 

[Kurotowa]

Getting away from the numbers argument, I've been looking into the revised subclasses to see what they have to offer. Archfey I'm not entirely sold on. Maybe the teleport gimmick has legs, but I dunno. On the other hand, though, I'm intrigued by the revised GOO Patron. Especially the potential of Psychic Spells.

Psychic Spells lets you ignore verbal and somatic components for Warlock Illusion and Enchantment spells. That's a pretty potent upgrade for spells that often benefit from subtlety. Now, unlike a Sorcerer's Subtle Spell it doesn't remove material components. But it's a lot easier to try and discretely manipulate an arcane focus than to claim you're muttering the spell under your breath. Ooooor, you might take Blade Pact, so your pact weapon is an arcane focus. No one expects the warrior grasping their sword hilt to be the source of a spell.

Now let's talk about "What is a Warlock spell?" It doesn't specify that it's your Pact Magic spells, and Warlocks don't trade in Spell-Like Abilities in this edition. Any spell granted by the Warlock class is a Warlock spell. So if you get Silent Image or Disguise Self at-will from an invocation, those should be Warlock spells, right? Because I can think of so many shenanigans you could get up to with at-will and always subtle Silent Image.

Let's not forget that Psychic Spells also works for Enchantments. And GOO Patron gives you an at-will telepathic bond. So how about a completely hidden Suggestion? No obvious spell cast, no spoken command, just a persuasive idea beamed directly into their head. You know what's also an Enchantment spell? Hex. Now you can sneakily leverage skill contests for your party by slapping disadvantage on the NPCs.

Oh, and speaking of the telepathic bond of Awakened Mind, it makes the Gaze of Two Minds invocation a lot more attractive. Riding someone else's senses as a passive observer is limited. Riding their senses when you have two-way telepathic communication is a lot more useful. Slap the combo on the Rogue before they go do some forward scouting. Or invest in Chain Pact and do familiar things, but with more range. Yes, there's a fairly limited time window, but you can't have everything.

All in all, on a closer look, I really like what GOO Patron is offering now. It has a lot of potential.

 

[Charlaquin]

This I do agree with. Regardless of power, the 3rd and 4th attacks has long been a fighter only area, its part of their class features. So the idea that any other class gets to meddle in that space is concerning to me.

It hasn’t been though, that’s my whole point. Eldritch Blast has always scaled up to 3 beams, at the same levels fighters gain extra attacks. 3 attacks has never been exclusive to fighters in 5e, unless you want to count the handful of D&D Next playtests packets before they added the Warlock. That’s what I’m objecting to here: the assertion that the bladelock is suddenly encroaching on the fighter’s territory, when the blastlock has been occupying that territory for 10 years.

Is Spirit Shroud too strong in combination with 3 melee attacks? Maybe. But the idea that 3 attacks is a bridge too far for warlocks when they’ve been making 3 attacks for the entirety of 5e’s publication history is absurd.

 

[Charlaquin]

Because its a caster, and melee is already disadvantaged for various reasons.

It doesnt help that Cha is the face stat as well.

Honest its an embarrassment of riches for a class that didnt need it. They should not be able to melee remotely as well as actual melee classes, without giving up casting/EB power.

I gotta say I'm actually shocked this isnt self evident.

So why wasn’t this already a complaint about ranged attacks? It’s not like Eldritch Blast wasn’t already outperforming longbows on the Fighter. I don’t understand this double-standard where it’s ok for a caster to outdo the fighter at range but not for them to do exactly the same thing at melee. Heck, ranged combat is better than melee anyway. If three attacks on a caster was such a big problem, it should have ALREADY been identified as such, because Warlocks have been doing it forever.

 

[Scribe]

So why wasn’t this already a complaint about ranged attacks?

At a level of abstraction a cantrip and ranged attack are one and the same.

The class as balanced per 2014 version was "cantrip blaster"

That's the balance. You have the best cantrip, and a few spells.

Why defend the class stepping on even more toes? It's honestly weird to think they should get the best cantrip, best spell level, and above average melee ability, better even than some dedicated melee class.

Like why? Don't deflect to "Oh but ranged" why is it OK for them to take up melee space ON TOP with no sacrifices elsewhere?

 

[Remathilis]

But the idea that 3 attacks is a bridge too far for warlocks when they’ve been making 3 attacks for the entirety of 5e’s publication history is absurd.

So where is the barbarian's third attack? The paladin's and the ranger's? The monks? Each of them pays a deep price for it (berserker frenzy, twf, flurry of blows/discipline points) where the warlock costs one invocation to get three attacks.

If anything, you're making a good argument that eldritch blast needs reworking. The fact even with agonizing blast applying to any cantrip it's still the superior choice should say something.

 

[Kurotowa]

So where is the barbarian's third attack? The paladin's and the ranger's? The monks? Each of them pays a deep price for it (berserker frenzy, twf, flurry of blows/discipline points) where the warlock costs one invocation to get three attacks.

They all get different but equivalent benefits via other mechanics, vaguely in the 9th-11th level band.. At least, equivalent in theory. Actual parity results depends on your opinion and white room sims.

The Barbarian gets its damage bump from the combination of the Rage passive bonus going up and getting Brutal Critical. Paladin gets Radiant Strikes and 3rd level spell slots for Smiting. Ranger seems to lean more on the 11th level subclass feature, like Beast Master pets getting a second attack and benefitting from Hunter's Mark. Monks get a bump to their Martial Arts die size (which as I noted in the current survey is mechanically effectively but super boring).

The idea is obviously that every martial class improves, they just each do so in a mechanically distinct way. After all the complaints about 4e's class homogeneity, making them mechanically distinct was obviously the way to go. It's just a question of if the math balances out once you put it into practice. Which is a hot button topic all on its own.

 

[Charlaquin]

At a level of abstraction a cantrip and ranged attack are one and the same.

Yes, that’s exactly my point.

The class as balanced per 2014 version was "cantrip blaster"

That's the balance. You have the best cantrip, and a few spells.

Why defend the class stepping on even more toes? It's honestly weird to think they should get the best cantrip, best spell level, and above average melee ability, better even than some dedicated melee class.

I don’t think they’re stepping on any more toes than they already were. Three attacks is three attacks, whether they’re melee or ranged. The fact that Pact of the Blade capped out at two attacks and needed an Invocation just to pull that off while Eldritch Blast got it for free was a specter that haunted the bladelock all edition long and lead to bad, kludgy fix attempts like the Hexblade and Spirit Shroud, almost all of which were just better on a blastlock anyway.

Like why? Don't deflect to "Oh but ranged" why is it OK for them to take up melee space ON TOP with no sacrifices elsewhere?

Why wouldn’t it be? If it’s ok for them to do at range, it should be ok for them to do in melee. If it’s not ok for them to do in melee, it shouldn’t be ok for them to do at range. Either 3 attacks is ok for a caster to have, or it isn’t.