D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[Charlaquin]

To be fair, I was referencing melee attacks, but I should have made that more clear.

In your defense, you were directly repeating what @Remathilis claimed in another thread, which also left out the word “melee.” I suspect intentionally, because they hate Pact Magic and are trying to frame the Pact Magic Warlock in the most negative light possible. That’s what I object to.

Is the build Treantmonk made a video about too strong? Maybe. I’d even grant probably. Is “9th level spells, three attacks, and the best cantrip in the game” the culprit? Absolutely not.

 

[Mistwell]

I love feats and I love fighters. The disconnect I’m experiencing is that everyone else is freaking out about one very specific build

That's the thing it's NOT just one specific build. The overwhelming majority of what's involved you automatically get as a bladelock or would naturally choose because it's the options the class gives to focus on things a bladelock does. Treantmonk literally was just tossing normal stuff at it and hand not even bothered to pick a subclass for it or all the enhancements which might come with a subclass. Nor had he spent all invocations on this, leaving room for other things for that Warlock not focused on this strategy. He wasn't even optimizing for this build - this is mostly what someone would just stumble into if they barely knew what they were doing with a bladelock.

that involves a lot of moving parts, any of which could be adjusted in response to playtesting results. Meanwhile, I’m responding to a question and implication about three broad capabilities of the Warlock class, all of which they have had since 2014.

There. There it is again. You keep making this provably false claim. You and I have discussed the meaningful difference between three weapon attacks and three EB attacks, you acknowledged you'd never said they were the same, but then you go right back to this claim they've had "three attacks" since 2014 knowing the discussion isn't about "three attacks" but about "three weapon attacks."

I find focusing on those three broad abilities to be misleading.

Well sure because you keep strawmanning the argument and pretending they're talking about three EB attacks knowing they're not.

If there’s a problem (and as I keep saying I am open to the possibility that there might be), it’s in the combination of several features, any of which could get adjusted to fix the problem. Not with warlocks getting 9th a level spell once per day, 3 attacks, and Eldritch Blast.

Start by honestly repeating the argument you're responding to and stop calling it 3 "attacks" as if that's EB attacks.

 

[Charlaquin]

Except you have, repeatedly.

Do I need to quote back just how many times you've repeated that they get "three attacks like usual" or something like that, without acknowledging it was never three WEAPON attacks?

I have acknowledged they are weapon attacks, and if you want to go back through my posted I’m sure you’ll find I have not claimed they aren’t. I have drawn equivalences between ranged and melee attacks, because I believe they are equivalent.

Why? I've never even mentioned Lifedrinker is an issue and I've said I am unsure on Spirit Shroud being an issue.

You’re not the only person participating in this discussion. Lifedrinker has been pointed to by multiple other posters as a part of the problematic build. But, if you feel I’ve misrepresented your argument, I apologize; that was not my intent. If you could clarify your position I’ll try to avoid conflating it with others’ positions in the future.

The list of subsystems which support weapons in ways above and beyond cantrips exceeds by quite a large amount just those two elements. You're not just strawmanning what I said, but doing it poorly. We all know it was well more than those two elements.

Because it was never just those three elements. I have mentioned from the beginning that it was those and all the other stuff mentioned. We've been discussing this topic for over 400 posts now. I've referred you repeatedly to build details which mention specifically all the stuff involved.

Ok, maybe I’m missing posts of yours because I’m responding to posts that quote me directly rather than reading post by post. Would you be so kind as to innumerate for me what the other stuff you’ve mentioned is so I don’t repeat this mistake?

Yeah, no, you've been responding to me with the same pithy strawman too, and I was never making that claim. You left out all the other stuff I was talking about, just like you did by claiming I was only zeroing in on Lifedrinker and Sprit Shroud above.

I’ve been responding with that quote because that quote is the point I’m arguing against. You keep bringing up points that don’t relate to that one, so I reiterate it to clarify my argument. If you’re claiming that there are features that can be overpowered in combination with the latest version of Thirsting Blade, I don’t disagree. I’m just arguing against the (IMO misleading) argument that warlocks are overpowered because they have 9th level spells, 3 attacks, and Eldritch Blast.

 

[Charlaquin]

That's the thing it's NOT just one specific build. The overwhelming majority of what's involved you automatically get as a bladelock or would naturally choose because it's the options the class gives to focus on things a bladelock does. Treantmonk literally was just tossing normal stuff at it and hand not even bothered to pick a subclass for it or all the enhancements which might come with a subclass. Nor had he spent all invocations on this, leaving room for other things for that Warlock not focused on this strategy. He wasn't even optimizing for this build - this is mostly what someone would just stumble into if they barely knew what they were doing with a bladelock.

I disagree that what the Warlock gets automatically makes the bladelock overpowered (discounting the fact that pact of the blade is itself not automatic, obviously). What you get automatically is three Charisma-based attacks with up to a d10 damage die, or d12 (or 2d6) if you invest in 13 Strength, and weapon mastery. Since we’re granting Pact of the Blade as automatic, I think it’s only fair to grant Agonizing Blast to the Eldritch Blast we’re comparing to. I’d say that’s pretty close to equivalent; the Eldritch Blast version gets the advantage of range and the Pact of the Blade version gets the advantage of a weapon mastery. I consider the potentially larger damage die a wash since it requires investment in an otherwise useless ability score. Maybe the blade version is slightly stronger thanks to the weapon mastery, and I have acknowledged that may be a place where it’s overtuned. Anything beyond that is not automatic, it all comes at opportunity costs, and involves other features which could be tweaked if they are found to be too powerful for those opportunity costs, and I’m not particularly interested in arguing about specific builds. WotC will work that all out through internal playtesting.

There. There it is again. You keep making this provably false claim. You and I have discussed the meaningful difference between three weapon attacks and three EB attacks, you acknowledged you'd never said they were the same, but then you go right back to this claim they've had "three attacks" since 2014 knowing the discussion isn't about "three attacks" but about "three weapon attacks."

I don’t say weapon attacks because neither did the claim I’m disputing. Had the claim I’m disputing said weapon attacks, I might have made a different counter-argument.

Well sure because you keep strawmanning the argument and pretending they're talking about three EB attacks knowing they're not.


Start by honestly repeating the argument you're responding to and stop calling it 3 "attacks" as if that's EB attacks.

I literally quoted the argument I’m responding to, and it literally said “attacks,” without the “melee” qualifier, or the (IMO more meaningful) “weapon” qualifier. Which is exactly why I dispute it.

 

[Stalker0]

the Eldritch Blast version gets the advantage of range and the Pact of the Blade version gets the advantage of a weapon mastery.

technically the pact of the blade can bond to a magic bow and have greater range than EB (unless you add in eldritch spear).

But reading it again I wonder if that's just a language issue: If you summon a pact weapon its melee, and while it doesn't say the magic weapon you bond with has to be melee (and therefore could be a bow) that may not be intended.

 

[Kinematics]

This was Treantmonk's analysis for a bladelock using a longbow instead of EB:

I disagree somewhat with the math you show.

Base damage is fine. 1d8 (longbow) + 5 (Cha) + 1d6 (Hex) + 1d6 (Lifedrinker) @ 60% accuracy = 9.9 average damage per attack.

Additional from critting is (1d8 + 1d6 + 1d6) * 5% = 0.575, for a total average damage per attack of 10.475.

Three attacks gives an average of 31.425. This is our baseline.

There is the pending question of whether warlock qualifies to get Great Weapon Master (or other combat feats) based solely on gaining proficiency with the pact weapon. This cannot be assumed, and must be considered a separate factor.

If it is possible for warlock to get this feat, whether directly or due to multiclassing, the 93.6% chance of hitting provides an extra 4.68 damage per round. Total average is now 36.105.

Eldritch Smite does 6d8 damage by default at level 13, and 12d8 on a crit. That's an average of 54 damage on a crit, not 89.5. A 5% chance of it happening gives an average boost to damage of 2.7 per attack, or 8.1 per round.

So our averages per round are:

Champion w/GWM+Archery	30.8
Warlock EB w/AB+Hex	24.8
Warlock Longbow Pact w/Hex+Lifedrinker	31.425 (+27%)
+GWM	36.105 (+45%)
+Eldritch Smite	39.525 (+60%)
+GWM+ES	44.205 (+78%)

Where the +% values are relative to Eldritch Blast.

If warlocks can't get GWM, then the longbow build is basically on par with the Champion, while adding Eldritch Smite allows burst damage above that in exchange for spell slots. If they can get the feat, it starts being a bit concerning. Even Eldritch Smite on its own with a ranged weapon is a bit concerning.

I agree that there's a decent possibility that Pact of the Blade isn't intended to be used with ranged weapons.

 

[Remathilis]

In your defense, you were directly repeating what @Remathilis claimed in another thread, which also left out the word “melee.” I suspect intentionally, because they hate Pact Magic and are trying to frame the Pact Magic Warlock in the most negative light possible. That’s what I object to.

Is the build Treantmonk made a video about too strong? Maybe. I’d even grant probably. Is “9th level spells, three attacks, and the best cantrip in the game” the culprit? Absolutely not.

No, I did not consider EB's three attacks in that statement. Mostly because EB's extra attacks are on par with most cantrip upgraded dice, with the same risk/reward breakdown of extra attacks vs sneak attack. Sometimes you come out ahead and sometimes you come out below depending on how many hits/misses/crits you get.

The "9th level spells, three attacks and best cantrip" problem is one of (ironically enough) versatility without cost. First off, what does a nonbladelock warlock have that the bladelock doesn't? Three extra open invocations? It's not like they can be better casters (unless three cantrips and two rituals are your definition of better caster). The bladelock and nonbladelock both get spells at the same rate, the same # of slots, the same mystic arcanum, and the same access to EB. A bladelock can swing into melee, shoot a flying enemy with EB, or nova a boss with banishment or other spells. He doesn't have to choose between melee, ranged or spells, he can have all three. The nonbladelock forgoes melee and gets...?

 

[Charlaquin]

No, I did not consider EB's three attacks in that statement. Mostly because EB's extra attacks are on par with most cantrip upgraded dice, with the same risk/reward breakdown of extra attacks vs sneak attack. Sometimes you come out ahead and sometimes you come out below depending on how many hits/misses/crits you get.

The "9th level spells, three attacks and best cantrip" problem is one of (ironically enough) versatility without cost. First off, what does a nonbladelock warlock have that the bladelock doesn't? Three extra open invocations? It's not like they can be better casters (unless three cantrips and two rituals are your definition of better caster). The bladelock and nonbladelock both get spells at the same rate, the same # of slots, the same mystic arcanum, and the same access to EB. A bladelock can swing into melee, shoot a flying enemy with EB, or nova a boss with banishment or other spells. He doesn't have to choose between melee, ranged or spells, he can have all three. The nonbladelock forgoes melee and gets...?

More Invocations, yes. The Warlock who foregoes Pact of the Blade could instead get Repelling Blast, for example. Obviously a Warlock could take both, but then they would miss out on some other Invocation. Maybe Pact of the Tome or the Chain. Invocations are a limited resource, and Warlock players have to decide how to use them.

Are some Invocations too strong or too weak compared to other options? Possibly. Probably, even. Hopefully that’ll get ironed out through internal playtesting. But none of this supports your claim that warlocks are overpowered due to 9th level spell (just one, once per day), 3 attacks, and Eldritch Blast, all of which they’ve had for 10 years. Granted, this version can make those 3 attacks with weapons, and that does allow some new Invocation, feat, and spell combos, some of which may be too strong for their opportunity costs. If so, the problem is the combo, not 9th level spells, 3 attacks, and eldritch blast.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

By accepting Eldritch Blast and Mystic Arcanum, you’re already accepting the combination of 9th level spells, powerful cantrip, and 3 attacks per round. What makes the fact that Eldritch Blast attacks are made at range less objectionable than being able to do exactly the same thing in melee?

Because being a ranged blasty mage is a visible, appropriately thematic limit that matters. Without other abilities/feats, they have disadvantage when making ranged attacks when adjacent to an enemy. If they take Pact of the Blade, they can stand their ground like warriors can.

However, what matters here is that Warlocks do not deserve a 3rd melee* attack if the Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, or Ranger don't get it. They should not better at melee than a Barbarian. Period. Even if they are cheaters... I mean warlocks.

*thanks @Scribe

 

[Remathilis]

Are some Invocations too strong or too weak compared to other options? Possibly. Probably, even. Hopefully that’ll get ironed out through internal playtesting.

Yes, and that's what we're supposed to be providing feedback on. This combo is too powerful.

Granted, this version can make those 3 attacks with weapons, and that does allow some new Invocation, feat, and spell combos, some of which may be too strong for their opportunity costs.

Which is what we're discussing. Three WEAPON attacks with any weapon they want, with whatever mastery property they want, mixed with any current feat and spell combos, alongside their current EB AND Pact Magic/Mystic Arcanum, is too much, too potent, and too easy to abuse.

If so, the problem is the combo, not 9th level spells, 3 attacks, and eldritch blast.

Swing and miss.