D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[Scribe]

Again, if it’s an issue, it should be an issue whether the attacks are melee or ranged. I would disagree that they’re an issue in melee, because of the other limitations of the class. But at least be consistent in your critique. If having one 9th level spell you can use once per day and being able to make 3 attacks is too much, it should be too much whether those attacks are made with a melee weapon or with a ranged cantrip.

No, its different because its a Caster class, that 'ranged attack' is a Spell, and its supposed to be the hook upon which the class is balanced. Thats the difference.

Everything else just contributes to the embarrassment of riches which is the Warlock core design, but EB being at the center of the class design and balanced against it being a 'caster, but with almost no spell slots' makes it what it is.

Adding MELEE attacks, when other classes dont get to 3 even if they are dedicated melee classes, is egregious.

 

[TwoSix]

lets keep in mind that the bladelock already gets a lot outside of the damage buffs, the biggest one is access to all masteries. so that already gives them a number of control options that the EB+AB either doesn't have or has to take more invocations for.

aka the bladelock doesn't have to be a damage king to compete with EB, there are alternatives.

Yes, but it has to be better damage than EB, or at the very least equivalent before the masteries come into play.

 

[Mistwell]

Ok, so then the problem really isn’t warlocks “having 9th level spells, three attacks, and the best cantrip in the game,” again, none of which is new.

Having three attacks with a weapon is new.

I am not going to take anything you post on this topic seriously anymore until you acknowledge that simple fact. Blacklock NEVER had three attacks with a weapon before. And weapons are meaningfully different than cantrips and we all understand that. Because there are entire huge subsystems in the game which support weapons in ways they do not support cantrips.

The problem is that if you dedicate a significant portion of your character building resources to it, you can stack enough on-hit riders to your melee attacks to achieve very high (arguably too high) DPR. So, perhaps some of those on-hit riders could do with some revisions.

Most of what I just mentioned is stuff you get automatically or would be picking normally anyway. They now get better Weapon Mastery abilities than Fighters. Think about that a moment - they get all the weapon masteries but can switch them on a bonus action at will, which is something even the fighter cannot do no matter what they choose unless they choose multiclassing as a bladelock!

I am seriously starting to question if you've even read the playtest class and thought about their new abilities?

I was responding to the assertion that warlocks are overpowered now because they “have 9th level spells, three attacks, and the best cantrip in the game.”

No, you're not. Nobody said "three attacks" they said "three WEAPON attacks and all the adders that comes with that" which includes things like the best weapon mastery ability in the game and access to a huge array of weapon enhancing feats and magic items and spells which they never could use before. It's a package game, not to be read in isolation.

 

[Mistwell]

So why wasn’t this already a complaint about ranged attacks? It’s not like Eldritch Blast wasn’t already outperforming longbows on the Fighter.

It most definitely was not. Any fighter built with a longbow in mind is outdamaging any Warlock with EB in mind after just a few levels. Yeesh this is why Treantmonk since 2014 has used a Warlock with EB, Agonizing Blast and Hex as his baseline which every class needs to beat to be considered even mildly decent. Because EB is considered the bare minimum amount of damage to be "Meh, good enough to get by." It's really quite mediocre, compared to any weapon and feats, because of the lack of means to enhance it with magic items and feats and spells and invocations beyond the very small number already in the game.

And whatever your complaints might be about Treantmonk, he's right about that basic provable topic. Weapons enhanced by focused things which enhance weapons do more damage (and other things, like control) than EB enhanced by focused things which enhance EB damage (and other things, like control). By quite a lot.

And now Warlock just took access to all those weapon sub-systems in the game, AND kept their other stuff, and can do some of those weapon sub-systems even better than the classes built from the ground-up to be focused on weapons!

Are you just someone who doesn't play with feats in their game? Or doesn't play fighters? This seems to be the fundamental disconnect you're experiencing in this thread that you don't understand why a cantrip which attacks three times would be meaningfully different than a longbow or greatsword attacking three times, when pretty much anyone who has ever played a fighter most definitely understand just how much better the weapon is than the cantrip once they start focusing choices on weapon damage.

 

[Kinematics]

In my experience, Eldritch Blast has the nice and reliable damage, but not as good as the Sharpshooter archers for ranged. Would be nice to see how they compare now that the -5 +10 is gone.

My spreadsheet has an Eldritch Blast warlock getting 24.8 DPR at level 11.

Meanwhile, a Champion using a longbow at level 11 gets 26.9 DPR, and a Battle Master (using a fairly abstract set of maneuvers) gets 27.3 DPR. If the fighter picks up Great Weapon Master (the bonus damage for heavy weapons isn't restricted to melee), that goes up to 30.8 and 31.2 for the Champion and Battle Master, respectively.

Sharpshooter doesn't affect damage, but gets rid of a lot of penalties (disadvantage for distance, cover, disadvantage for firing in melee), so isn't relevant for these purposes.

Overall, the longbow is mildly better than Eldritch Blast for damage, by between 2 and 6 DPR. Repelling Blast provides a bit more utility than the Slow weapon mastery that longbow gets by default, but fighter could swap the weapon mastery to Push to make them equivalent. Overall, very similar.

 

[Mistwell]

My spreadsheet has an Eldritch Blast warlock getting 24.8 DPR at level 11.

Meanwhile, a Champion using a longbow at level 11 gets 26.9 DPR, and a Battle Master (using a fairly abstract set of maneuvers) gets 27.3 DPR. If the fighter picks up Great Weapon Master (the bonus damage for heavy weapons isn't restricted to melee), that goes up to 30.8 and 31.2 for the Champion and Battle Master, respectively.

Sharpshooter doesn't affect damage, but gets rid of a lot of penalties (disadvantage for distance, cover, disadvantage for firing in melee), so isn't relevant for these purposes.

Overall, the longbow is mildly better than Eldritch Blast for damage, by between 2 and 6 DPR. Repelling Blast provides a bit more utility than the Slow weapon mastery that longbow gets by default, but fighter could swap the weapon mastery to Push to make them equivalent. Overall, very similar.

Remember the more attacks you get the more that difference in damage adds up together.

This was Treantmonk's analysis for a bladelock using a longbow instead of EB at 13th level, which does not include a subclass yet:

Ranged: Longbow (moontouched or whatever, assumes no magic bonus to hit and damage just base 1d8+5 damage). Includes Slow Mastery, which is nice but not changing DPR calculation.
Rd 1 Bonus Action: Hex (same as baseline attack)
Attack #1 1d8+5
1d6 Lifedrinker
1d6 Hex
Total average damage for a hit = 16.5
60% chance to hit = 9.9 average damage
5% chance to crit (Eldritch Smite used on Crits) 89.5 damage on crit = 4.48 average [BUT SEE BELOW]
Attack #1 total average damage: 14.38
Attack #2 total average damage: 14.38
Attack #3 total average damage: 14.38
Great Weapon Master (Applies proficiency bonus to damage once per round - and yes, it now applies to a longbow too): Chance of hitting at least once with 3 attacks = 94% x 5 (proficiency bonus) = 4.7 damage average per round.
Total Damage Per Round: 47.84 average (14.38 + 14.38 + 14.38 + 4.7), which is 79% more than Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast and Hex.

Now Eldritch Smite can use more spell slots. So lets assume for this one you never took Eldritch Smite and that big boost on crits goes away. Crits are now 5% x 12.5 = 0.63. New total is 36.59, which is still 37% more than Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Hex. And you're Slowing Target (Weapon Mastery) rather than pushing Target (Repelling Blast). And getting more range from longbow than Eldritch Blast. Bottom Line: why use Eldritch Blast anymore when this does a lot more damage for just one more invocation involved really?

 

[Charlaquin]

Having three attacks with a weapon is new.

I am not going to take anything you post on this topic seriously anymore until you acknowledge that simple fact. Blacklock NEVER had three attacks with a weapon before.

I have never disputed any of that.

And weapons are meaningfully different than cantrips and we all understand that. Because there are entire huge subsystems in the game which support weapons in ways they do not support cantrips.

I thought the offending features were Lifedrinker and Spirit Shroud?

Most of what I just mentioned is stuff you get automatically or would be picking normally anyway.

You would be picking Lifedrinker and Spirit Shroud on an Eldritch Blast Warlock…?

They now get better Weapon Mastery abilities than Fighters. Think about that a moment - they get all the weapon masteries but can switch them on a bonus action at will, which is something even the fighter cannot do no matter what they choose unless they choose multiclassing as a bladelock!

That’s probably a bit overtuned, yeah. Should at least require a long rest to swap weapons, and maybe just don’t gain the mastery at all. That has nothing to do with “level 9 spells, 3 attacks, and the best cantrip in the game.”

I am seriously starting to question if you've even read the playtest class and thought about their new abilities?

Of course I’ve read it and thought about it. It looks very strong. Might even need some adjustment; WotC will iron that out with internal playtesting.

No, you're not. Nobody said "three attacks" they said "three WEAPON attacks and all the adders that comes with that" which includes things like the best weapon mastery ability in the game and access to a huge array of weapon enhancing feats and magic items and spells which they never could use before. It's a package game, not to be read in isolation.

Want to read that post I was responding to again?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You cannot get

Rank 9 Spells, 3 Attacks, and the best Blaster Cantrip, all at the same time, can you?

Bold added for emphasis.

 

[Scribe]

Bold added for emphasis.

To be fair, I was referencing melee attacks, but I should have made that more clear.

 

[Charlaquin]

Are you just someone who doesn't play with feats in their game? Or doesn't play fighters? This seems to be the fundamental disconnect you're experiencing in this thread that you don't understand why a cantrip which attacks three times would be meaningfully different than a longbow or greatsword attacking three times, when pretty much anyone who has ever played a fighter most definitely understand just how much better the weapon is than the cantrip once they start focusing choices on weapon damage.

I love feats and I love fighters. The disconnect I’m experiencing is that everyone else is freaking out about one very specific build that involves a lot of moving parts, any of which could be adjusted in response to playtesting results. Meanwhile, I’m responding to a question and implication about three broad capabilities of the Warlock class, all of which they have had since 2014. I find focusing on those three broad abilities to be misleading. If there’s a problem (and as I keep saying I am open to the possibility that there might be), it’s in the combination of several features, any of which could get adjusted to fix the problem. Not with warlocks getting 9th a level spell once per day, 3 attacks, and Eldritch Blast.

 

[Mistwell]

I have never disputed any of that.

Except you have, repeatedly.

Do I need to quote back just how many times you've repeated that they get "three attacks like usual" or something like that, without acknowledging it was never three WEAPON attacks?

I thought the offending features were Lifedrinker and Spirit Shroud?

Why? I've never even mentioned Lifedrinker is an issue and I've said I am unsure on Spirit Shroud being an issue.

You would be picking Lifedrinker and Spirit Shroud on an Eldritch Blast Warlock…?

The list of subsystems which support weapons in ways above and beyond cantrips exceeds by quite a large amount just those two elements. You're not just strawmanning what I said, but doing it poorly. We all know it was well more than those two elements.

That’s probably a bit overtuned, yeah. Should at least require a long rest to swap weapons, and maybe just don’t gain the mastery at all. That has nothing to do with “level 9 spells, 3 attacks, and the best cantrip in the game.”

Because it was never just those three elements. I have mentioned from the beginning that it was those and all the other stuff mentioned. We've been discussing this topic for over 400 posts now. I've referred you repeatedly to build details which mention specifically all the stuff involved.

Of course I’ve read it and thought about it. It looks very strong. Might even need some adjustment; WotC will iron that out with internal playtesting.

Want to read that post I was responding to again?

Bold added for emphasis.

Yeah, no, you've been responding to me with the same pithy strawman too, and I was never making that claim. You left out all the other stuff I was talking about, just like you did by claiming I was only zeroing in on Lifedrinker and Sprit Shroud above.